finally a true new high end mixer from pioneer ("the Xone killer") DJM V-10

[Dj O.C]

could it really be that pioneer is going back on the lead with dj mixers?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIE4u8eb2wE

well it looks descent, not killing the xones imo but defintly a competition

[Manu]

the Xone killer

Now, line the prices up for another laugh.

[SWS Productions]

Too bad the dipwad that did intro to the sound track doesn't understand the concept of "talkover". I would like to see some kind of display or an HDMI output for an auxiliary display.

[efinque]

They went overboard with the FX imo, looks cheap and unprofessional while the rest of it is very classy, I think they were aiming for a successor for the DJM-1000 but without those 100mm studio faders.

The digital I/O isn't something anyone should seriously look for as the technology is fairly new and quite useless since CD players have inbuilt DA, if someone insists on using any other converter than the one built in the CD player they should be using a very high end external or a tube one, the ones in mixers are probably about the same as in the CD players unless it's for video use or something.. but I see many large clubs installing one because it is the flagship model after all.

I'd dare to say it lacks the professional feel & looks of the old DJM-1000. You could literally find the DJM-600 (and later DJM-800) in every club and venue, but it was largely because of the layout and ease of use, in fact according to what I gathered Pioneer mixers had terrible headroom (SNR and THD, ie. distortion/clipping became an issue above 0dB and many people ran them at +18dB)

No doubt the build quality is there though, but then again while the Pioneer CD players are considered professional (industry standard) the mixers are more than often ranked consumer-grade in terms of fidelity.

What I didn't really look into is the I/O, from what I gathered it has 2 USB interface inputs (for b2b, like the dual headphone amps?) and the additional multi-I/O for connecting an external device, resident DJs and such may rejoice as there's plenty of room for connecting equipment without having to tinker with the wiring (something people that are considering on purchasing new gear often don't pay attention to, ie. expanding the setup later on)

One thing I don't quite get is how the filter works.. if it's a dry/wet control between two output buses you'd get phase cancellation etc as it has no assign button.

[Manu]

I'd dare to say it lacks the professional feel & looks of the old DJM-1000. You could literally find the DJM-600 (and later DJM-800) in every club and venue, but it was largely because of the layout and ease of use, in fact according to what I gathered Pioneer mixers had terrible headroom (SNR and THD, ie. distortion/clipping became an issue above 0dB and many people ran them at +18dB)

It's digital lol, by design it can't go above 0 unless involving some compression/limiting trickery. It just kills dynamics by limiting the input then raising the perceived volume levels.

We ran my mixer (Xone 62) hot one evening at a gig (me + others). Absolutely red max everything. The thing purred because full analogue, everyone using the mixer couldn't believe it to flat out a mixer without distortion. Back in the day the DJM 1000 would not hold a candle to that. On paper the Xone does a mix to output of +23 dB...

If you have a pioneer, it's better to stay out of the red, then turn the volume button, otherwise you're just clipping it. There is no headroom in digital, when all the digital music you feed it is normalised in the first place.

[conanski]

The digital I/O isn't something anyone should seriously look for as the technology is fairly new and quite useless since CD players have inbuilt DA,

No you're missing the point, if the CDJs are connected to the mixer digitally and the mixer is connected to the PA digitally then it becomes impossible for the DJ to clip the signal. The bane of a sound man's existence are DJs that insist on overdriving everything so eliminating all the analog stages where that can be done is a win from a sound quality standpoint. Most of the DJs I work with use Pioneer controllers and yeah they don't have much headroom and sound pretty nasty when pushed, if only they would put digital outputs on them I'd be a happy camper.

[efinque]

No you're missing the point, if the CDJs are connected to the mixer digitally and the mixer is connected to the PA digitally then it becomes impossible for the DJ to clip the signal.

Well, you're only then relying on the amplifier DA's.

1V signal in a 10-bit system (1024 values) gives you roughly 1mV accuracy. 5V signal = 5mV and so on but most DA's are 12/14/16-bits, max. 65536 values, with 5V that's ~0,076mV (5V=5000mV÷65536) accuracy. (edit : afaik there aren't many amps that have SPDIF/digital input either)

For comparison, a standard phono cartridge outputs 5-6mV whereas a line level preamp expects a 200-300mV signal.

Or am I missing something here? You can try this with a digital interface by playing a sample file and cranking up the volume that goes into rest of the system.

[light-o-matic]

Well, you're only then relying on the amplifier DA's.

1V signal in a 10-bit system (1024 values) gives you roughly 1mV accuracy. 5V signal = 5mV and so on but most DA's are 12/14/16-bits, max. 65536 values, with 5V that's ~0,076mV (5V=5000mV÷65536) accuracy. (edit : afaik there aren't many amps that have SPDIF/digital input either)

For comparison, a standard phono cartridge outputs 5-6mV whereas a line level preamp expects a 200-300mV signal.

Or am I missing something here? You can try this with a digital interface by playing a sample file and cranking up the volume that goes into rest of the system.

Yes you are missing a LOT of things.

1. 16 bits is the absolute minimum bit depth you are dealing with in ANY hifi or pro audio system, and as been for a LONG time.
2. The Pioneer DJM900NXS for example, converts at 24 bits on the analog inputs, has a 32 bit mix bus and 32 bit output converters.
3. The S/PDIF standard is either 16 or 24 bits. 20 bits was an option at one time but I don't know if anyone supports it.
4. The input voltage coming from the phono cartridge has nothing to do with the output resolution of the mixer, because that signal is preamplified before it's converted to digital. But even so, once you are in the digital domain, the only thing that matters is the number of available bits. That's what determines your maximum signal to noise ratio.

Anyway, what conanski is saying is that YES absolutely, the signal will have to be converted from digital to analog EVENTUALLY. But there is nothing to be gained by converting it multiple times. Connecting the CDJ to the mixer digitally, avoids an unnecessary conversion from digital to analog and then from analog back to digital.. which would only result in degrading the quality. Every conversion from digital to analog and back is a loss of quality, so yes.. if you can design your system to keep things entirely digital until it get to the amplifier, that's the optimal setup.

[SWS Productions]

Yes you are missing a LOT of things.

1. 16 bits is the absolute minimum bit depth you are dealing with in ANY hifi or pro audio system, and as been for a LONG time.
2. The Pioneer DJM900NXS for example, converts at 24 bits on the analog inputs, has a 32 bit mix bus and 32 bit output converters.....

Yep. All the pro stuff I use is 24 bit AD/DA and support minimum 96khz max sampling rates.

I picked up a Denon Prime 4 as the specs look good on it. Denon specs are 24 bit AD/DA and they claim +20dbm max out. I haven't run any music through it yet, but this thread has me curious.

For pro digital stuff in general, talking mixers (pro sound not DJ) and DSC's I was skeptical at first. Digital technology is mature in some areas - pro audio to include wireless mics. I don't have experience with the DJ controllers yet. But, having experience with dbx and Ashly Digital System Controllers I can say they sound good and have plenty of headroom, as well as pro sound mixers.

Hopefully, the Prime 4 and DDJ-SX3 I have will sound good and have enough headroom to get it done. It was easy back in the analog days.

I'll post the results after cranking the Prime 4 and DDJ-SX3 up - hopefully I'm not disappointed.

[light-o-matic]

..having experience with dbx and Ashly Digital System Controllers I can say they sound good and have plenty of headroom, as well as pro sound mixers.

Hopefully, the Prime 4 and DDJ-SX3 I have will sound good and have enough headroom to get it done. It was easy back in the analog days.

I'll post the results after cranking the Prime 4 and DDJ-SX3 up - hopefully I'm not disappointed.

Def let us know please.

I have been using nothing but Ashly processors for about 10 years now.. I have a Protea 24.24m in one system and a 4.24c in another at the moment... and these were old when I got them,
these are only 24/48 whereas yea, 96K is common these days.. but I'm still really happy with their sound and if I was going to put money into my system right now.. sure, I'd love a newer processor but I don't feel like the processor is the main thing holding the system back.. these are still pro sounding pieces.