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Thread: Looking for a more refined sound from my Yamaha DXR10 powered,mainly top end.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck50 View Post
    Sorry...what do you mean by "high passed"?
    Is there actually a high pass crossover on the main XLR outouts? If these are in fact fullrange the DXRs are still trying to reproduce the same frequencies as the sub which will negatively affect clarity at higher drive levels.
    Paul O'Brien
    Old Tech Guy
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by conanski View Post
    Is there actually a high pass crossover on the main XLR outouts? If these are in fact fullrange the DXRs are still trying to reproduce the same frequencies as the sub which will negatively affect clarity at higher drive levels.
    Hi:
    I have the tops crossed over at 80 on the main XLR outs on pre-amp and sub crossed over at 80,so I am assuming anything 80 and lower goes to the sub to relieve bass duties on the tops.
    I have the cross-over points occurring at the pre-amp rather than going through the sub's crossover so this way I can control the sub with the sub control on the pre-amp,rather than having to get up to adjust volume on the rear of the sub,which is way more convenient.....whether or not it's the 'correct' way to hook up a sub...I dunno?!Thanks,H50
    Last edited by Huck50; 12-11-2021 at 08:25 AM.

  3. #23
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    This is a rear view of my pre-amp:
    Last edited by Huck50; 12-11-2021 at 05:55 AM.

  4. #24
    That's ok, tho maybe I would cross those more like 90Hz, you can try it and see what you like better.
    But the one question is whether there is a low pass built into your RCF sub.. there usually is.. and whether you can either disable or adjust its frequency... If you have a low pass at let's say 100hz on the sub, which cannot be defeated or adjusted upward, then you basically have a double low pass on the sub which is going to cause a dip in the frequency response around and somewhat above the crossover frequency.. which you don't want. So in that case you would have to leave the low pass disabled on your preamp sub output. And then set your preamp high pass output frequency to match the frequency of the subs low pass.

    But, if your sub has an adjustable low pass.. let's say 80-150hz.. then if you crank it all the way to 150.. you will get it mostly (not totally, but good enough) "out of the way" of the 80 hz low pass on your preamp, so then you can use the one in the preamp. And.. if you can disable the low pass on the sub.. which is rare.. then do that.

    If that makes sense?
    Last edited by light-o-matic; 12-11-2021 at 11:45 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by light-o-matic View Post
    That's ok, tho maybe I would cross those more like 90Hz, you can try it and see what you like better.
    But the one question is whether there is a low pass built into your RCF sub.. there usually is.. and whether you can either disable or adjust its frequency... If you have a low pass at let's say 100hz on the sub, which cannot be defeated or adjusted upward, then you basically have a double low pass on the sub which is going to cause a dip in the frequency response around and somewhat above the crossover frequency.. which you don't want. So in that case you would have to leave the low pass disabled on your preamp sub output. And then set your preamp high pass output frequency to match the frequency of the subs low pass.

    But, if your sub has an adjustable low pass.. let's say 80-150hz.. then if you crank it all the way to 150.. you will get it mostly (not totally, but good enough) "out of the way" of the 80 hz low pass on your preamp, so then you can use the one in the preamp. And.. if you can disable the low pass on the sub.. which is rare.. then do that.

    If that makes sense?
    Sorry...I am a little confused
    My sub has one push button for cross-over...in for 80 or out for 120,so I don't think I can disable it.
    I will try the cross-overs on the pre-amp set at 90 and see/hear if I like or not.
    Thanks,H50

  6. #26
    Yeah well then you have two choices, you can set the sub cover to 80, change the preamp subwoofer low pass disabled, you don't want any filter there since the sub is doing it. And leave your high pass on the preamp set to 80 as you have it.

    Personally that is what I would do

    Your other option is to set the sub xover to 120 and leave both filters as they are on the preamp, I think that will not work as well but you can try it both ways.. and also could try in that case also try tweaking the low pass (sub) frequency upward slightly on the preamp to compensate for the overlapping filters.

  7. #27
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    Thanks.H50

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by light-o-matic View Post
    Yeah well then you have two choices, you can set the sub cover to 80, change the preamp subwoofer low pass disabled, you don't want any filter there since the sub is doing it. And leave your high pass on the preamp set to 80 as you have it.

    Personally that is what I would do

    Your other option is to set the sub xover to 120 and leave both filters as they are on the preamp, I think that will not work as well but you can try it both ways.. and also could try in that case also try tweaking the low pass (sub) frequency upward slightly on the preamp to compensate for the overlapping filters.
    Hi:
    I tried the top suggestion last night for a few hours,but the bass doesn't sound as full,like some bass is missing.
    Maybe I have been listening for so long with the 'wrong' (all x-overing done at pre-amp)hook-up and just got accustomed to it
    What advantage is there by going through the x-over on the sub as opposed to going through the sub x-over on the pre-amp?....I dunno,but I am trying to learn something.
    Thanks,H50
    Last edited by Huck50; 12-13-2021 at 06:02 AM. Reason: additional info

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Huck50 View Post
    Hi:
    I tried the top suggestion last night for a few hours,but the bass doesn't sound as full,like some bass is missing.
    Maybe I have been listening for so long with the 'wrong' (all x-overing done at pre-amp)hook-up and just got accustomed to it
    What advantage is there by going through the x-over on the sub as opposed to going through the sub x-over on the pre-amp?....I dunno,but I am trying to learn something.
    Thanks,H50
    Disabling the crossover on the sub output of the preamp should have increased output of the sub.. if it feels like less, it means you have a phase problem. If you have a phase switch on the sub, try it both positions to see what you like better. And obv, you may have to adjust the sub level to get the bass level matched up with the level of the tops.

    But ok, to explain the difference: a crossover consists of two filters. One filter.. the high pass.. cuts the bass from the signal going to the tops. The other filter.. the low pass.. cuts the mids and highs from the signal going to the sub, leaving just the bass. These filters don't do a super sharp cut.. it's gradual, so there's a transition zone where some frequencies (right at the crossover frequency.. in this case 80 hz.. and a little above that and a little below) come out of both the sub and the tops, but basically.. the idea is that at the lowest bass, all the signal is going to the sub and none to the tops. As you go up in frequency, the sub signal gets lower and the top signal gets higher.. until the tops totally take over.

    In order for this transition to be smooth, you need filters which complement each other.. that is, one filter reduces level to the exact amount that the other one increases it, so that every frequency is at an equal level.

    The problem with your setup is that you CAN'T just go through the crossover on the preamp. The sub has a low pass filter built into it and you can't turn it off, so you're stuck using it. This means that if you turn on the low pass on the preamp, the signal will pass through TWO filters on its way to the sub, and that results in the high frequencies being cut off from the sub twice as steeply. You will get a dip in frequency response because, as the frequency rises, the sub is losing signal twice as fast as the tops are getting more signal to make up for it. You have got three filters working when you only need two.

    If you turn off the low pass (sub xover) on the preamp.. then you have got two filters working.. the low pass in the sub, and the high pass in the preamp. That's closer to what you want.. And.. hopefully they have the same curve.. they may not, because they come from different manufacturers.. but, you have no choice here, since you can't turn off the low pass in your sub.. you're stuck with that. You should adjust the high pass on your preamp until you get the smoothest midbass response.

    As far as feeling that you have less bass with the sub xover turned off on the preamp, if you have got a phase switch on the sub, try it in both positions and see what sounds better. You may also need to move the sub around. But basically, it shouldn't sound like less bass with the xover turned off.. and that it does indicates that you have other problems that need fixing.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by light-o-matic View Post
    Disabling the crossover on the sub output of the preamp should have increased output of the sub.. if it feels like less, it means you have a phase problem. If you have a phase switch on the sub, try it both positions to see what you like better. And obv, you may have to adjust the sub level to get the bass level matched up with the level of the tops.

    But ok, to explain the difference: a crossover consists of two filters. One filter.. the high pass.. cuts the bass from the signal going to the tops. The other filter.. the low pass.. cuts the mids and highs from the signal going to the sub, leaving just the bass. These filters don't do a super sharp cut.. it's gradual, so there's a transition zone where some frequencies (right at the crossover frequency.. in this case 80 hz.. and a little above that and a little below) come out of both the sub and the tops, but basically.. the idea is that at the lowest bass, all the signal is going to the sub and none to the tops. As you go up in frequency, the sub signal gets lower and the top signal gets higher.. until the tops totally take over.

    In order for this transition to be smooth, you need filters which complement each other.. that is, one filter reduces level to the exact amount that the other one increases it, so that every frequency is at an equal level.

    The problem with your setup is that you CAN'T just go through the crossover on the preamp. The sub has a low pass filter built into it and you can't turn it off, so you're stuck using it. This means that if you turn on the low pass on the preamp, the signal will pass through TWO filters on its way to the sub, and that results in the high frequencies being cut off from the sub twice as steeply. You will get a dip in frequency response because, as the frequency rises, the sub is losing signal twice as fast as the tops are getting more signal to make up for it. You have got three filters working when you only need two.

    If you turn off the low pass (sub xover) on the preamp.. then you have got two filters working.. the low pass in the sub, and the high pass in the preamp. That's closer to what you want.. And.. hopefully they have the same curve.. they may not, because they come from different manufacturers.. but, you have no choice here, since you can't turn off the low pass in your sub.. you're stuck with that. You should adjust the high pass on your preamp until you get the smoothest midbass response.

    As far as feeling that you have less bass with the sub xover turned off on the preamp, if you have got a phase switch on the sub, try it in both positions and see what sounds better. You may also need to move the sub around. But basically, it shouldn't sound like less bass with the xover turned off.. and that it does indicates that you have other problems that need fixing.
    Sorry for belabouring this post,but what is not 'correct' about going through the x-overs on the pre-amp,seems that they would be close to each other especially at the detent location at 80,being from the same manufacturer?
    Also,not sure why you stated "The problem with your setup is that you CAN'T just go through the crossover on the preamp"...why not?
    I will try the phase control and hear if any different.
    Just checked and I have a push button on sub for link/x-over,so I guess I can turn off the sub x-over. Thanks,H50
    Last edited by Huck50; 12-13-2021 at 10:32 AM.

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