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Thread: How to improve recording quality

  1. #21
    Member steveryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchiemasha View Post
    Yeap... that's what I'm on about. If you upload the file I can smash it for you. I'll do the first one free. I also splice out mistakes. As in, if you make a mistake, leave a gap and do the mix again, record about 2 hours to cut down to 1, the tracks are re-editted back together, seamlessly, sample accurate. Sometimes you might want shorter version of the song to get more in a mix, like the radio edits but with the club mix, dj friendly intro/outros, I make those too.
    Thank you for the offer. That sounds awesome. I'll let you know if I decided to take you up on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchiemasha View Post
    That sounds interesting, does it record them as 2 different tracks, if it did you'd have even more control, have parts with the crowd louder etc.
    I think it does record two tracks and you have to put em together later. I haven't tried it yet but there's a couple YouTube vids about it. It's called 4 channel recording. It also has Dual Mode where it automatically records a backup of your recording in case something goes wrong. I believe it records it in 5 minute segments though so your guaranteed to get something.

  2. #22
    Moderator pete's Avatar
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    what happens when you record directly to the computer?
    it would be great to isolate the problem before trying to solve it...
    try another recording device..try another mixer...try another cable etc.
    bored, curious, deaf or just bad taste in music?
    finally a mix by me
    and what's this, another shoddy mix...another dull mix

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveryan View Post
    I could use Audacity I suppose, but this plan makes my Tascam useless. The plan was to find the easiest way to record high quality. I should be able to do that with the Tascam.
    I'm detecting a little miss understanding here. Your complaint is "weak recording" low overall volume. This is already High Quality, it just needs level boosting. It wouldn't make the Tascam useless, that's what you're using to record. Putting the recording in to Audacity or a DAW wouldn't increase the "Quality". The quality will always be at the standard it is or less, it would however be made louder.

    Due to the very nature of mixing and the summing of 2 audio tracks (lots of much higher peaks regardless to your use of EQ and gain control), even if normalising to 100%, the main part of the audio will still be much lower, weak. Perceived volume and peak volume are 2 different things. If you did manage to mix and keep the peak levels the same in the mix as not in the mix, the perceived volume during the mix would drop considerable. It's all due to the phase relationships of the 2 frequency. Without limiting and dynamic compression with things like iZotope Ozone, it's impossible. Even recording via a hardware compressor doesn't work, they're not fast enough and you'll get tinier peaks slipping through, these are often inaudible but eat up headroom, clip converters, amps etc...

    There is a SECRET though, a trick... Over normalise, say 120%, then normalise to 99.9%. Now you've chopped off those random spikes, that are the result of the exact moment, an exact same frequency, in both tracks, happened to be perfectly in phase. It doesn't have to be 120%, just whatever amount gets the songs up to 0db, without the transitions sounding bad. That was the quick way of dealing with a random pop back in the vinyl days, the pop wouldn't let the normalisation, maximise the recording to the desired amount, as it would be the highest peak.
    Last edited by mitchiemasha; 07-02-2019 at 07:44 PM.

  4. #24
    Member steveryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchiemasha View Post
    I'm detecting a little miss understanding here. Your complaint is "weak recording" low overall volume. This is already High Quality, it just needs level boosting. It wouldn't make the Tascam useless, that's what you're using to record. Putting the recording in to Audacity or a DAW wouldn't increase the "Quality". The quality will always be at the standard it is or less, it would however be made louder.

    Due to the very nature of mixing and the summing of 2 audio tracks (lots of much higher peaks regardless to your use of EQ and gain control), even if normalising to 100%, the main part of the audio will still be much lower, weak. Perceived volume and peak volume are 2 different things. If you did manage to mix and keep the peak levels the same in the mix as not in the mix, the perceived volume during the mix would drop considerable. It's all due to the phase relationships of the 2 frequency. Without limiting and dynamic compression with things like iZotope Ozone, it's impossible. Even recording via a hardware compressor doesn't work, they're not fast enough and you'll get tinier peaks slipping through, these are often inaudible but eat up headroom, clip converters, amps etc...

    There is a SECRET though, a trick... Over normalise, say 120%, then normalise to 99.9%. Now you've chopped off those random spikes, that are the result of the exact moment, an exact same frequency, in both tracks, happened to be perfectly in phase. It doesn't have to be 120%, just whatever amount gets the songs up to 0db, without the transitions sounding bad. That was the quick way of dealing with a random pop back in the vinyl days, the pop wouldn't let the normalisation, maximise the recording to the desired amount, as it would be the highest peak.
    Alright. I get what you're sayin'. Here's the plan.

    I have four, 30 minute mixes I'm going to record tomorrow in WAV with the new settings I've made on the Tascam from some advice I found in a YouTube video.

    I'll go straight from the mixer into the Tascam: RCA to XLR.

    Record Mode: Stereo
    Format: WAV 24bit
    Sample: 48k
    Low Cut: Off
    Level: -6db (Keep in mind I can change the input level on the side of the recorder at any time and make sure to keep it below Peak where it can clip)

    These are the only settings available that have any effect on the sound quality.

    The first mix is tech house. I'll put it up on Mixcloud or send it to you. If you want to give your opinion of the sound quality I would appreciate it.

  5. #25
    Member steveryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by light-o-matic View Post
    No it's not.
    Why is that? Must I run the sound into a DAW?

    If I go out from the Focusrite into my Tascam and it does nothing for the sound, then essentially it's just a $200 audio cable.

    I have no experience with this type of equipment so forgive me if I sound ignorant on all this.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by steveryan View Post
    Why is that? Must I run the sound into a DAW?

    If I go out from the Focusrite into my Tascam and it does nothing for the sound, then essentially it's just a $200 audio cable.

    I have no experience with this type of equipment so forgive me if I sound ignorant on all this.
    The Focusrite Scarlet contains mic preamps, a phantom power supply, an analog to digital converter.. as well as a digital to analog converter and headphone preamp for playback and monitoring.. as well as a USB interface to transfer the data between these things and your computer, and consequently to/from the software on your computer.

    These are ALL things that the Tascam recorder already has.. it is a self contained recorder that has preamps, converters, a simple computer, and software.. all in one box. Adding the focusrite will do nothing for you because even if the focusrite has better preamps or a better A/D converter than the DR40 (which is possible, but far from guaranteed), the DR40 is simply NOT designed to use any converters other than the ones that are in it, it just doesn't have connections for that. If the Focusrite were to have better preamps than the Tascam, you could in theory use the Focusrite as just a mic preamp, and then take the line level outputs from there to line inputs on the recorder.. bypassing the internal mic preamps on the recorder... this MIGHT produce a higher quality result.. but only if the Focusrite preamps were significantly better than those in the DR40. And only if you're recording from microphones, which you aren't....

    Basically, the lesson here is that there is no such thing as a "make it sound better" box. There are various units (as well as various pieces of software) that do specific jobs, and that are designed to be used in specific ways, and if you choose the right unit for the job you need to do, that is designed to be used in the situation you are in, and you use it in the right way, then you will achieve a certain result.

    In short, you have to understand what's wrong (and what's RIGHT) about what you are already doing, before you can make it better.

    The DR40 is capable of making a good sounding recording, if you have the right cables, a good signal level coming into it, the right settings... BTW I have a DR100 and it works great.

    The reason Mitchie and other people are telling you to use a DAW (eg. Audacity) is simple, it has to do with the realities of digital recording. When you are recording digitally.. the sound is converted into numbers.. louder sound, higher numbers, lower sound, lower numbers..... There is an absolute highest number that can be recorded.. and nothing louder than be recorded. If your level is too high and you hit this number, anything higher cannot be recorded AT ALL and will be clipped off (digital clipping). This causes distortion and it sounds bad. So you really do not want that to happen.. it is always better to record a little lower and NOT clip than to record at the absolute max possible and clip. This is why you don't crank the input levels on the recorder until the meter goes right to the top. Music signals vary in volume and you need room for that variation. Then, when you are DJing, even if you are really good at it, it is inevitable that you will vary the volume a little bit during mixes or from track to track. So you need a little extra room to account for that.... So basically you cannot record at the maximum possible volume and get a clean recording, you need to record lower. Not TONS lower, but significantly lower. Too low is a different problem...

    So then, you are in the situation where, you have got a good sounding recording.. if you turn the volume up when you play it, it should sound great (if it doesn't, then you have a DIFFERENT PROBLEM that you need to figure out)... It's only when you compare it to other recordings and realize that you need to turn up the playback level to get the volume of yours to match the volume of theirs.

    So how do you fix that?? You normalize. Normalization is a process done in software which looks at the whole recording.. after it's been recorded, and figures out, what is the highest number (highest level) that was used? It then multiplies all the numbers in the recording so that the highest volume moment in your set becomes the highest possible level.. and everything else also becomes louder. In other words, it takes the finished recording and cranks the volume up on it EXACTLY the right amount to make it as loud as it can possibly be, WITHOUT going over and causing distortion. And EVERY professional recording you listen to has had this done to it... That is what we are telling you to do.

    Now, if you don't want to do that, there is another option. The DR40 has a limiter circuit built into it. What the limiter does is.. watch for signals that are too high, and pushes them down. It dips the volume on peaks to keep them from going over the max. This prevents distortion, but in a different way, it kind of IS distortion, it changes the sound of the tracks you've recorded. So you don't want the limiter working all the time, it's meant to be used to just catch an occasional mess-up where the level peaks higher than you expected. But if you use the limiter, you can raise your input (recording) level up, and get recordings that are much closer in volume to the absolute maximum without having to process them later. But if you overdo it, the limiter will work harder and harder, squashing all the dynamics out of your tracks. You don't want that.

    How I do it is, I always record at a lower level than the max.. and sure I have the limiter turned on in the recorder, but it never does anything, because I have the input level set low enough that I will never hit the maximum. So I have a nice clean recording. Then I bring that recording into Audacity. Then I normalize it. Now sometimes, when I normalize it, I'll find that the level is still kind of low compared to other recordings. And the reason for that is because maybe for ONE brief moment, when I was DJing, I let it go louder than the rest. This one moment is now the maximum loudness and everything else is quieter in comparison, even if it didn't happen until the very end of the set. So if I want to fix that, I might (in Audacity) add some limiting.. and selecting the right settings for that takes some practice.. you don't want too much... But what I do is try to limit it to just cut down those one or two super loud moments... and then, having made that room.. I can normalize again and bring everything else up. It is a balancing act. And basically, if you want a set recording that sounds loud all the way through.. naturally.. without squashing the sound using any compression or excessive limiting.. then you need to practice keeping your levels precise an consistent from track to track and through all your mixes.. because if your levels are not well controlled when you are djing, that is going to be in the recording. Flaws in your DJing that don't bother you when you are doing it will stick out and be a lot more annoying when you are listening to the recording! That includes changes in volume that will have you reaching for the volume knob to turn it up and down when you are listening to the playback!

    But basically, if you do it all in the recorder, you have less room for error, because once you go over and distort it, you can't fix that. You can't remove distortion later, the recording is just bad and that's all. If you turn on the limiter, you will get less distortion, but overlimiting is bad too. And if you record too low, you'll be in the same boat you're in now. So yea, it is possible to get a great recording at the highest volume using just the recorder.. but both the level settings and your consistency while mixing have to be JUST RIGHT for the whole set.. and that's tricky.
    Last edited by light-o-matic; 07-03-2019 at 08:47 AM.

  7. #27
    Member steveryan's Avatar
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    Light-O-Matic thank you for taking the time to make this thoughtful and informative post for me. I will have to read it a couple times to let it all sink in.

    I've never normalized anything and I haven't used Audacity very much but I can probably figure out how to do it.

    I did record my Tech set today 3 times. The 2nd time was by far the best but I had a couple rough transitions towards the end which is always a drag. I'm going to record it again right now and hope it all goes well.

    Looks like I won't be recording all 4 demos today like I thought. I'm spending 3 hours on just one.

  8. #28
    Member steveryan's Avatar
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    Okay, so I just nailed the shit outta that set about as good as I'm gonna get it.

    I can't upload it to Mixcloud because it's in WAV and I don't have enough space left at Soundcloud.

    How can I get it to you guys so you can hear it?

  9. #29
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    Don't forget... If you make a mistake, keep it recording, stop the music, leave a gap, rewind the last track a bit, do the mix again. I can splice this back together for you, seamlessly. I'll send you back both a WAV and MP3. You can always pick up from a certain point at a later date or even redo the middle, keeping the end and the start. It's a lot easier than doing the full thing again.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by steveryan View Post
    How can I get it to you guys so you can hear it?
    Excellent mix, loved it, good flow. I've boosted the levels for you, enjoyed listening to it whilst dialling it in.

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