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Thread: Question about keys

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryCombover View Post
    (and I have pitch lock on my CDJs on near permanently)
    I few reasons why this is bad.

    When bending the record our brains respond to the micro changes in Pitch. This tells us if we've over bent, under bent before actually hearing the phase. Programming this into yourself as an automatic, subconscious reaction, seriously increases your skill/speed at matching tempos. Especially important if working on different pieces of equipment as you've learned to react to the bend, not just the feel, size of your platter. It's the same in sports where athletes subconsciously respond to micro cues or triggers, rather than reacting to the action, if reacting to the action, they're already too late.

    The algo isn't very good. To speed up a record it cuts it into tiny little pieces and overlaps them. Sometimes an important cycle, like the peak transient of a kick, will fall in that overlap and be erased. This will ruin the nice sound we get of 2 tracks in the mix as every 3rd or 8th kick is being destroyed by the algo.

    However, there's no rules. If you like it, use it. But at least now you know what those issues are when confronted by them.
    Last edited by mitchiemasha; 12-05-2018 at 09:06 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchiemasha View Post
    I few reasons why this is bad.

    When bending the record our brains respond to the micro changes in Pitch. This tells us if we've over bent, under bent before actually hearing the phase. Programming this into yourself as an automatic, subconscious reaction, seriously increases your skill/speed at matching tempos. Especially important if working on different pieces of equipment as you've learned to react to the bend, not just the feel, size of your platter. It's the same in sports where athletes subconsciously respond to micro cues or triggers, rather than reacting to the action, if reacting to the action, they're already too late.

    The algo isn't very good. To speed up a record it cuts it into tiny little pieces and overlaps them. Sometimes an important cycle, like the peak transient of a kick, will fall in that overlap and be erased. This will ruin the nice sound we get of 2 tracks in the mix as every 3rd or 8th kick is being destroyed by the algo.

    However, there's no rules. If you like it, use it. But at least now you know what those issues are when confronted by them.
    Very interesting - didn't know that.

    Reason I keep it in is because it sounds terrible when you push it in when it has gone out and the pitch spikes upwards. Its very noticeable.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerryCombover View Post
    Reason I keep it in is because it sounds terrible when you push it in when it has gone out and the pitch spikes upwards. Its very noticeable.
    Yes, that's all to do with the relative and perfect pitch I mentioned. As you hear the song at its original pitch, a quick jump to the new pitch will be noticeable and sound very strange. If you only hear it at the new pitch, it's no where near as obvious, unless pushing to the extremes, chipmunks... When you get good, you'll match the BPM in the first few beats, it's almost instant, if you have a good cue, it is instant. You won't hear it at the original pitch so it won't sound strange.

    Only people born in music, who practised music whilst learning to walk and talk have Perfect Pitch. We lose it as something our brain can focus on as it's not in our life at that important stage of early development. Most normal people won't even notice the song is higher or lower as they hear relative.

    Back a long time ago... Some radio stations used to play everything at +2, more advertising time and it gave the sound of their station a little bit more 'energy', with out people realising why. There was a big major label that used to do it to all their masters before pressing too, I forget which, possible Stock Aitken and Waterman. In the Rave days, we'd get Eurodance or Italian Style and pray they were on 33, we could put them on 45 -8%. Many jungle breaks came about the same way.
    Last edited by mitchiemasha; 12-06-2018 at 04:10 PM.

  4. #14
    I used to use master.tempo (key lock) all the time on my.CDJ's but I eventually gave it up because of the effect on sound quality.

    Obviously it's possible to do good mixes without it since vinyl DJs have never had it, and only the most expensive CDJs had it at first. You just have to do.your corrections gently after you've brought the track in. And if you're part way through a mix and the old track isn't as loud as the new one, do the correction on the old track....

    In a way, using master.tempo holds you back from being a better DJ because it allows you to do these big corrections less conspicuously.. but if you didn't have that to cover up for you, you'd have to learn to beatmatch better.

  5. #15
    Junior Member BDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by light-o-matic View Post
    You probably have and you just don't know it. You listened to the track and it sounded wrong mixing from the other track so you didn't play it.. or it sounded good so you did ..

    Whether you knew the key ahead of time or not is irrelevant to the fact that the tracks are each in a key and the key each track is in has a big effect on how they will sound together. If.you know that information ahead of time you can use that to help decide what track to play. If you don't use that info but just mix by ear then you are still considering key because you are picking tracks that sound good together ...
    You're right, LOM - each track is in a specific key, but it was never prominently shown on vinyl or CDs until these new media players and controllers started displaying them.
    Even now - I ignore the key display and just test the cued track to see if it will blend in seamlessly.
    Music is magic. It can alter mood and evoke vivid memories. It is with you through your darkest times and brightest moments. Its effects are boundless.
    And all that power that is within music... I can control with these two hands.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by BDC View Post
    You're right, LOM - each track is in a specific key, but it was never prominently shown on vinyl or CDs until these new media players and controllers started displaying them.
    Even now - I ignore the key display and just test the cued track to see if it will blend in seamlessly.
    Well I think even in the 70's people used to do it using a piano to figure out the key, and a stopwatch to figure out the bpm. But you had to be pretty dedicated to do that.

    For the longest time I did it how you do it.. just by ear. But about 4+ years ago I started using MIK and at first it totally messed with my head.. because I used to never know the key OR bpm of any of my tracks I would totally just pick em as I go. But once I knew the key it always seemed wrong. But over time I got used to it and now I just use the key info as a helper and don't get too hung up on it. And now I find it makes my sets better.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by light-o-matic View Post
    Well I think even in the 70's people used to do it using a piano to figure out the key, and a stopwatch to figure out the bpm. But you had to be pretty dedicated to do that.

    For the longest time I did it how you do it.. just by ear. But about 4+ years ago I started using MIK and at first it totally messed with my head.. because I used to never know the key OR bpm of any of my tracks I would totally just pick em as I go. But once I knew the key it always seemed wrong. But over time I got used to it and now I just use the key info as a helper and don't get too hung up on it. And now I find it makes my sets better.
    I do it by ear, and sometimes use my voice to check while the current track is playing, going through the scales to check the pitch ect. I don't know how far-off 'perfect' it is, would be interesting to find out. I used to play the cello in an orchestra at school; did it for 5 years (on-stage, travelling ect) until I got found-out I couldn't read the music.
    Last edited by dlove; 12-09-2018 at 06:38 AM.

  8. #18
    Member b.ill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BDC View Post
    You're right, LOM - each track is in a specific key, but it was never prominently shown on vinyl or CDs until these new media players and controllers started displaying them.
    Even now - I ignore the key display and just test the cued track to see if it will blend in seamlessly.
    It's always best to ignore the key determination of DJ software because it's unreliable.

    Here's an obvious example everyone knows: God's Plan. Billboard's #1 single of the year. Mixed constantly by those of us in clubs all spring and summer. DJ City lists the key as Ab (the first note of the bass loop - it's actually kinda picthed bent down from an A). Traktor lists the key as C (the first chord of the pad loop - it's actually more of a Cmag7 if I remember right). The best key for in key mixing though is G - the key of the vocals if you listen to an acap.

    This is very typical of todays club tracks where the tonic is only implied and not explicitly stated. I do a lot of in key mixing because quite simply it really works when it comes to holding a floor, and check all my tracks here at home by playing along with them on a keyboard before entering my mixing key in the comments section of track info. Of course you can do the same just by listing what each track works best with. But you can't rely on software to do the work for you.

  9. #19
    plus if you get in the habit of constantly mixing in the 'right' key, you won't develop an ear for off-key sounds that work well together

  10. #20
    Member Hygro's Avatar
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    Trueeeeee

    There's also so many other dimensions than "key". The moment someone releases the software "mixed in groove" everyone's gonna start organizing their song's by the Wheel of Swings.
    My production tips thread. On my production philosophy, techniques, and concepts
    http://www.djforums.com/forums/showt...roduction-Tips

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