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Thread: Looking For A Simple Dual Reflex Fullrange Design

  1. #11
    Member Incognito's Avatar
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    Early summer there was a local guy stating he was the sole "dealer" for & was trying to sell these http://www.alibaba.com/product-detai...489864607.html (or some other knock off similar). I haven't seen him in some time (or heard of anyone who actually bought any from him) but I think he figured out they weren't on par with JBL as he was trying to market & price them. However if I could find him I guess I could buy a pair of the bare cabinets from him but then I would have to rethink my drivers altogether (possibly would have to add extra bracing as well) but really it would not be worth the risk about time you factor in the replacement driver prices & the price point he was asking (something like $1,200 each).

    If I can find a smooth sounding Neo driver with the same 99.9db sensitivity but with double the power handling of the Deltalite 2512 II, I would be set & would make a single 12" & single 2" reflex top.
    If I had to play only for people who liked the music because they heard it on the radio, it wouldn't make me happy. -- David Guetta

  2. #12
    Instead of guessing download WINISD for free and do some modelling. Also the design by tux should be pretty cheap since he just chargers for the xover. They sounded very good when I heard them with 350 watts.



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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
    Here's the basic design I am looking for as well as the drivers in question. I am looking to build a pair dual 12" plus 2" compression driver trapezoidal reflex tops (similar to the JBL SRX 722 or Electro Voice QRX 212/75 exvept with a 2" horn). The drivers in question per speaker are a pair of Eminence Deltalite II 2512 12" neodymium driver Driver & a Selenium D3505Ti-Nd Titanium Neodymium compression driver mounted on a Eminence H2EA cast aluminum exponential horn lens (60x40).
    That Eminence says it's 60 x 40 but it doesn't provide a directivity chart with a typical driver, which would make me a bit suspicious. The EV HP640 is about twice the size of the Eminence horn and its vertical pattern has already broken at 700 Hz, which is the lowest recommended crossover frequency on the Eminence horn - that makes me think they aren't telling the whole truth with the 60 x 40 nominal pattern. If you are crossing over high that may not make a difference to you but the driver you picked says it goes down to 500 Hz, and I would take advantage of that if you can. HP640s go for $50 on eBay all the time.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
    If I can find a smooth sounding Neo driver with the same 99.9db sensitivity
    Actually.. below 1khz it only does about 97dB.
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  5. #15
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    Lets not forget that the OP's intention is to build these physically light (so they can be pole mounted) and (probably) add subs later.

    The cabinet designs that produce a more concentric wave front are all complicated and add weight. Going to a larger horn for the tweeter adds weight (if not the horn itself, the cabinet to accommodate it), and I wouldn't go near 500Hz with that driver with high power.

    When the OP first started thinking of this, the idea of using a passive xover was quickly dismissed. High order passive xovers, Zoebels, etc., even with computer modeling, IMHO are nightmares, they add weight, and changes are expensive. Give me a nice, big, solid state, low-impedance output amp hooked right to that voice coil!! Even with active, high order filters are a challenge. I only suggested using a 24/db oct on the tweeter for power handling.

    I think the concept of using an only 50% larger (to accommodate a second woofer, again for weight, and therefore stuffed), ported box with neo woofers has merit. I am all for perfection, but out in the real world, very very good is OK.
    Last edited by Hanginon; 11-13-2014 at 09:43 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanginon View Post
    Lets not forget that the OP's intention is to build these physically light (so they can be pole mounted) and (probably) add subs later.

    The cabinet designs that produce a more concentric wave front are all complicated and add weight. Going to a larger horn for the tweeter adds weight (if not the horn itself, the cabinet to accommodate it), and I wouldn't go near 500Hz with that driver with high power.

    When the OP first started thinking of this, the idea of using a passive xover was quickly dismissed. High order passive xovers, Zoebels, etc., even with computer modeling, IMHO are nightmares, they add weight, and changes are expensive. Give me a nice, big, solid state, low-impedance output amp hooked right to that voice coil!! Even with active, high order filters are a challenge. I only suggested using a 24/db oct on the tweeter for power handling.

    I think the concept of using an only 50% larger (to accommodate a second woofer, again for weight, and therefore stuffed), ported box with neo woofers has merit. I am all for perfection, but out in the real world, very very good is OK.
    Probably for the best. I have a pair of EV HP4060s with DH1As in my garage and some day in a fit of madness I'm going to build a dual 15 with them crossed over at 500 Hz.

  7. #17
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    Had a chance conversation with this guy in passing on this topic, he was in a local hardware store buying supply to build some speakers. So happens he claims he has some plans he found for a speaker design very close to the EAW KF750F, while he told me my Deltalite II 2512 would be fine, the Selenium Selenium D3505Ti-Nd compression driver & the Eminence H2EA 60x40 horn lens are wrong to be mated with the 12" drivers in this (or any) design. As a matter of fact he claims the compression driver is simply wrong altogether to be mated with my choice of 12" driver & that I should be using something like the Selenium D220Ti 1" compression driver mounted on a Selenium HM1725 60x40 horn lens.

    His logic was that the lower crossover point of the 2" compression driver as well as it's higher sensitivity will only work with larger 15" drivers due to cross over points (even though I was looking at crossing over at around 1.2Khz with my original driver combination choices) so a 1" or 1.5" compression driver would be better suited. My reasoning of using a 2" compression driver was for the smooth response while being able to reach high SPL as well as the effortless sound it has at higher SPL without sounding harsh or strained when compared to smaller compression drivers. Does his choice of the D220Ti compression driver seem better suited for my Selenium Deltalite II 2512 12" drivers then my choice of the Selenium D3505Ti-Nd compression driver?
    If I had to play only for people who liked the music because they heard it on the radio, it wouldn't make me happy. -- David Guetta

  8. #18
    Member Incognito's Avatar
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    This was his idea, for me to still use my Deltalite II 2512 12" drivers but use his choice of Selenium D220Ti 1" compression driver mounted on a Selenium HM1725 60x40 horn lens then use these plans.


    http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=x12

    (happens to be the 3rd time this very design has been suggested to me actually)
    Looks like it would only be good for smaller gigs or close range applications & since it uses 3/4" ply it looks like it would be heavy. The fact that there's no specs as far as frequency range or crossover points, etc. for the design kind of makes it's appeal seem not so appealing.
    Last edited by Incognito; 11-16-2014 at 11:52 AM.
    If I had to play only for people who liked the music because they heard it on the radio, it wouldn't make me happy. -- David Guetta

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
    His logic was that the lower crossover point of the 2" compression driver as well as it's higher sensitivity will only work with larger 15" drivers due to cross over points (even though I was looking at crossing over at around 1.2Khz with my original driver combination choices) so a 1" or 1.5" compression driver would be better suited. My reasoning of using a 2" compression driver was for the smooth response while being able to reach high SPL as well as the effortless sound it has at higher SPL without sounding harsh or strained when compared to smaller compression drivers. Does his choice of the D220Ti compression driver seem better suited for my Selenium Deltalite II 2512 12" drivers then my choice of the Selenium D3505Ti-Nd compression driver?

    No he is wrong... totally wrong on everything. I have the Deltalites paired with selenium D210ti's in my 12+1 boxes and they sound good... with some DSP processing, but they simply don't compare in midrange/vocal clarity to the big 2" exit drivers. I tested the B&C I have with a pair of Deltalites and it was beautiful.. tons of output without any strain. I have the D210s on a Dayton H110 horn and crossed at 1.6khz, I simply don't see you crossing a 1" CD any lower and putting any power into it, if you were just doing home theater SPLs maybe but not for a pro audio application.
    Last edited by conanski; 11-16-2014 at 11:43 AM.
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  10. #20
    I have four EAW JF260e's which pair a 12 with a 2.. sounds nice! But the price you will pay with a 2 inch is high end roll-off and just generally not as smooth coverage in the highest highs.. there's a loss of "sparkle" as the hifi crowd would put it... But the midrange is monster and very smooth dispersion. My new ones, the LA325's.. have a 2 inch HF mated with a pair of 7 inch mids.. I would expect them to go for a smaller HF driver but can't complain because they sound great! Definitely limited at the very very top of the HF but I'm the only one who really notices.. it is not bad. The factory suggested processing includes a slight HF lift..

    By my understanding you are dealing with two factors.. the maximum effective frequency that can be handled by the 12 inch, and the maximum driver spacing to the HF driver. If you go by the commonly stated rules, both limits are 1 wavelength.. so around 1100 or so Hz for a 12 inch driver.. so it just meets the minimum requirements to work with a 1 inch throat.. and we know it sounds pretty good because there are so many commercial speakers with this combination. But a larger throat would be better. A 2 inch with 600 or so Hz crossover would definitely give a smoother dispersion. In the newer model of the JF260's EAW uses a 1.4 inch rather than the 2 inch.. which is a nice compromise between somewhat less monster midrange output but you don't lose the highest highs.
    Last edited by light-o-matic; 11-16-2014 at 01:53 PM.

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