Underground Vs Mainstream - Where are you?

[DJ Elroy]

I know this argument has been kicked around a bunch for the past few years, but I think thinks like the Sneak vs SHM debate, the DJ Paris Hilton debut, the "underground" DJs being kicked off the decks in the more posh commercial nightclubs, and the corpritization of electronic music in the US seem to keep the fires alive. Note: for this post I'm sticking with the generic terms.

Recently came across a "why can't we all just get along" article here:

http://www.inthemix.com.au/features/...rop_the_grudge

Then I found a quote on Skruff from a Denis Ferrer interview that got me thinking:

Commercial EDM to me is Cheez Whiz. That's just me. Don't get me wrong, I respect it. It's music and art, and the funny thing is it's not exactly that easy to make, believe it or not. But I don't eat Cheez Whiz. I like real food. Stuff that's got taste and comes in classy flavors. Yet if all you've been shown is McDonald's and never had proper sushi ... Well, I can't blame you for your lack of knowledge, right?

Well, the people, corporate structure, labels, R&B artists, and clubs are all in collusion as a McDonald's, and they all want a piece of the franchise action. They see an easy customer who just wants it fast, cheap and easy. They're not interested in educating. So that's why you have us and you have them. It's always been that way.

I don't have to complain because these are the rules that have always existed. It is why the underground is a very unforgiving place and it's the reason why most of them can try all they want to to come back, especially after they blow all their cash. [Laughs] But as numerous have-been major artists, producers, and DJs will attest, it's an even harder and sorrow-filled road to travel.

Could one survive without the other?

Sure, back in the day the underground didn't need the commercial players, but could the scene didn't really explode (in the US) until the mainstream got wind of how awesome electronic was, but things are different now. Right?

I'm putting together an article on the debate but wanted to get some other DJF opinions; here are a few questions:

1) What is "underground" or "commercial" or "mainstream" anyway? Is it a sound? An attitude? Do the definitions have to do with sales numbers? Or is it just a feeling that can't be easily defined? If an "underground" artists sells x-amount of records, is he no longer underground by default? Does a track that makes the Beatport Top 10 become "commercial? (As far as EDM can be called "commercial")

2) Do you consider yourself an underground or commercial DJ? (And by commercial, I don't necessarily mean "pop" or Top 40) Is it thru choice or necessity?

3) Do you enjoy music across the board, or do you prefer listening to underground or mainstream more?

4) Are you a hipster? Do you like to find the hot new artists and leave them when they get more recognition?

5) Are you a hipster in denial?

6) What do you think of Ferrer's comments?

7) Do you think the underground/commercial scenes need to come together, or is the polarization good in a way? I've seen successful festivals/shows with both underground and mainstream artists.

[DJWhoQE]

I'd say I'm more of an "underground" DJ, if only for the fact that I specialize in genres that are completely off most people's radar.

With the exception of Trap. That shit blew up.

[Sigma]

1) What is "underground" or "commercial" or "mainstream" anyway? Is it a sound? An attitude? Do the definitions have to do with sales numbers? Or is it just a feeling that can't be easily defined? If an "underground" artists sells x-amount of records, is he no longer underground by default? Does a track that makes the Beatport Top 10 become "commercial? (As far as EDM can be called "commercial")

Mainstream music is usually made to a formula that's known to be currently successful in order to try and make money, so I think that's the main difference and it's why an underground act can have a mainstream hit and still retain their credibility. Look at The Prodigy for instance - number 1 records in the UK pop chart, but nobody really sees them as some mainstream sell-out pop act. The underground is where all music starts anyway.

2) Do you consider yourself an underground or commercial DJ?

Underground, but not out of choice. I play the music I like and I happen to dislike the majority of the current popular songs that fall into genres I would usually listen to.

3) Do you enjoy music across the board, or do you prefer listening to underground or mainstream more?

Across the board, but more underground than mainstream. I'm only putting music into these boxes for the purposes of this thread though, cos I just like what I like. I'm not avoiding popular music on purpose. In the past, a greater percentage of music that I liked was "mainstream" and that may be true again in the future.

4) Are you a hipster? Do you like to find the hot new artists and leave them when they get more recognition?

Fuck, no! I hate that. It reminds me of when I was at school and electro became popular (real electro, not "electro house") so everyone jumped on it and said they loved it, but as soon as it was no longer considered fashionable, those people that "loved it" no longer listened to it. I've never been like that never will be - besides, I'm way too old to be a "hipster" now.

5) Are you a hipster in denial?

Nope, definitely not. I would love it if some of the music that I consider "underground" became mainstream, because I'd get out there and start gigging again. I certainly wouldn't start disliking artists that I currently like, because that would mean I don't really like them now!

6) What do you think of Ferrer's comments?

He's right, although I would disagree with one thing - I see nothing wrong with eating some fast food now and again, but if that's all you eat then you're gonna get unhealthy.

7) Do you think the underground/commercial scenes need to come together, or is the polarization good in a way?

I don't know if I'd call it "good", just inevitable. You have 2 main groups of people: -

1. Music heads. People that really get into music and dig deeper than most to seek out new artists and songs.
2. People who discover almost all of their music through mainstream radio and who don't really dig deep for new experiences.

2 is the much bigger group and you can't force people in group 2 to join group 1. Festivals work because they are big enough to accommodate both types of people and yeah, I think that's good because both groups could perhaps do with being a touch more open-minded (generalising a bit there), but in terms of smaller venues, it's one or the other IMO. That said, people in group 1 will go to venues aimed at group 2 for the social aspect and because they're stuck for choice, while people in group 2 are much less likely to go to events aimed at group 1 because they really have little reason to.

[ilya]

Could one survive without the other?

absolutely. sure, you have the occasional cross-over act but all the 'trickle down effect' stuff is bs i think. people who enjoy challenging/stimulating music will do so regardless of genre and people who like easily consumable, perfectly packaged music don't usually get any sort of push to dig deeper if all they hear is more easily consumable, perfectly packaged music without any additional influence. this category includes your swedish house mafias, kaskades, deadmice, skrillexes, whatever else.

'mainstream' music typically relies on corporate marketing to reach its audience. 'underground' shit uses the inverse equation; people actively look for artists and sounds that tickle their sonic fancy. of course you have plenty of phony marketing schemes in what's considered the underground too but there's usually a significant difference between the methods used by major labels and media conglomerates vs. smaller/more niche backers.

but given that cross-over does obviously exist, i think it's more beneficial to think in terms of commercial music vs. real music. the former doesn't serve to further artistic merit as it's main goal; rather, it's created and used as a commodity. that includes artists, label heads, a&r, promoters or whoever that do what they do primarily for $$/fame/sex/etc. real music, to me, comes from a person's desire to express oneself because they have to... people that genuinely have something to say through a song/party/record label and always keep this motivation at the forefront of what they're doing.

what delineates the two, then, are their ethos... their aesthetic. it's not about how many records someone sells, what particular style of music they champion (if any), or anything else artificial. it's 100% about their approach and underlying motivation.

it's also not about whether the 'underground' or 'mainstream' is better. it's about whether you're pandering to some external goal or doing it because something inside your brain forces you to do so, kinda like breathing.

with that being said, i typically avoid commercial tripe. i understand that it's made to function as a commodity and this has 0 appeal to me. i like art because it's challenging, intellectually stimulating, and a genuine expression of something deeper that its creator put out there. to put it plainly: it's fundamentally human. all the other stuff is ultimately inconsequential as it's just an object.

so yes, dennis ferrer's comparison to fast food is pretty on-point. culinary art exists but that doesn't make the person cooking fries at mcdonalds an artist.

[contra]

Totally underground. The mainstream doesn't even know what acid techno means lol

[Maikky]

I'm a hipster, there I said it .

[DJ Boom Bap]

Why do we even have this debate?

There has always been popular music. There has always been shit music. There has always been underground, and mainstream. There has always been underground music that has crossed over, and to a lot of people becomes shit.

Music is music, we all love it in one way or another. Why everybody wants to concentrate on what sucks and not what doesn't, is beyond me.

Take it for what it is. If it's a throw away track, and people want to hear it, play it for 3 months and throw it away. If it's a classic, and it's a classic. If it touches people the way music touches people than its not shit.

[login]

1) What is "underground" or "commercial" or "mainstream" anyway? Is it a sound? An attitude? Do the definitions have to do with sales numbers? Or is it just a feeling that can't be easily defined? If an "underground" artists sells x-amount of records, is he no longer underground by default? Does a track that makes the Beatport Top 10 become "commercial? (As far as EDM can be called "commercial")

If it's on the radio it's commercial

2) Do you consider yourself an underground or commercial DJ? (And by commercial, I don't necessarily mean "pop" or Top 40) Is it thru choice or necessity?

Underground, my choice. I couldn't play anything else

3) Do you enjoy music across the board, or do you prefer listening to underground or mainstream more?

I only enjoy some rock from the mainstream, 90% of the music I like is underground

4) Are you a hipster? Do you like to find the hot new artists and leave them when they get more recognition?

NO

5) Are you a hipster in denial?

No

6) What do you think of Ferrer's comments?

I dont care

7) Do you think the underground/commercial scenes need to come together, or is the polarization good in a way? I've seen successful festivals/shows with both underground and mainstream artists.

Some people want their EDM pure, deep and hypnotic. Some don't care that much about the music. No need to push things in any direction.

[dlove]

I know this argument has been kicked around a bunch for the past few years, but I think thinks like the Sneak vs SHM debate, the DJ Paris Hilton debut, the "underground" DJs being kicked off the decks in the more posh commercial nightclubs, and the corpritization of electronic music in the US seem to keep the fires alive. Note: for this post I'm sticking with the generic terms.

Recently came across a "why can't we all just get along" article here:

http://www.inthemix.com.au/features/...rop_the_grudge

Then I found a quote on Skruff from a Denis Ferrer interview that got me thinking:



Could one survive without the other?

Sure, back in the day the underground didn't need the commercial players, but could the scene didn't really explode (in the US) until the mainstream got wind of how awesome electronic was, but things are different now. Right?

I'm putting together an article on the debate but wanted to get some other DJF opinions; here are a few questions:

1) What is "underground" or "commercial" or "mainstream" anyway? Is it a sound? An attitude? Do the definitions have to do with sales numbers? Or is it just a feeling that can't be easily defined? If an "underground" artists sells x-amount of records, is he no longer underground by default? Does a track that makes the Beatport Top 10 become "commercial? (As far as EDM can be called "commercial")

2) Do you consider yourself an underground or commercial DJ? (And by commercial, I don't necessarily mean "pop" or Top 40) Is it thru choice or necessity?

3) Do you enjoy music across the board, or do you prefer listening to underground or mainstream more?

4) Are you a hipster? Do you like to find the hot new artists and leave them when they get more recognition?

5) Are you a hipster in denial?

6) What do you think of Ferrer's comments?

7) Do you think the underground/commercial scenes need to come together, or is the polarization good in a way? I've seen successful festivals/shows with both underground and mainstream artists.

the big drinks companies latched-on to the fact that thousands of kids were raving all night in one place, and swooped in. Personally, I can't stand what it's done to the scene.

[dlove]

ps; I voted 'underground' as I'd never play a gig sponsored by Red Bull, I'd never play a commercial bar/chain, and I'd never play a type of music I didn't love to get a gig.

The "commercial scenes" are vampires on our culture, sucking our creativity and killing the vibes. The bastards are now everywhere; the dancefloor used to be respite from all that commercial pish. Don't Believe The Hype! remember kids; AUTHENTICITY RULES. These companies are selling back to us a diluted version of what we invented. Aarrrgh!