Vinyl or CDs??

[koreanmafia]

y do most of u guys choose vinyl turntables over the digital cd players??...or do you??
is it because they are more expensive??
i plan on getting some turntables pretty soon, but than i am hearing a lot of good stuff about cd players...are they all pretty good or is only the cdj-1000 that is good (this is too expensive for me btw/ in this case i would jus go with vinyl)
neways wat do u guys think??

lata

[Stripe]

I have always stuck with vinyl. Mabye one day I may purchase a cd player to go with my setup. But I like the feel of vinyl better :) I have used the Denon cd system. It was ok.

[Just J]

I like vinyl strictly because you can directly manipulate it. If I had the Denon CD player, I'd prolly use CDs alot more, since they have HUGE advantages over vinyl. (last longer, can hold more than 2-6 songs, sound better, easier to get tracks, etc, etc.)

[sonnyboy]

i agree that there is definitely a better feel with working with vinyl. but with the cdj1000s and future developments...cds will probably be the wave of the future.

[sintetika]

people still prefer sound produced from an analog format sound over common digital formats. major sound systems like the ones steve dash builds (phazon) are all analog.

there is certain magic and depth to the sound that cannot be recreated with digital.

[sintetika]

cd's are digital.

the point is not how the sound comes out of the speakers. it's the sound's originating source.

like a difference between a real guitar or a cd recording of one.

digital source is not necessarily more clear than analog. as it stands today vinyl has a much deeper base reproduction and warmer sound than a cd. you can absolutely hear the difference on a good sound system. perhaps in a couple of years this will change.

granted cds are more convenient to carry around. vinyl is much easier to manipulate, and even simple things like being able to see the grooves to tell what's happening with the track really helps.

btw, the sales of vinyl have been increasing over the last couple of years.

[Just J]

Vinyl is up because the sale of turntables has increased.

CDs will aways be superior over reading that same song off of an analog source like vinyl. Little nuances don't change the quality of the source, and the sound is reproduced 100% how it was recorded.

I know CDs are digital, but the sound you hear is analog sound. Also, the digital waveform on the disc is exactly the same as the same waveform on a record when it's converted.

I love my vinyl, and spin all the time, but CDs are far superior in sound quality, and convenience.

[sintetika]

Originally posted by Tribal 0n3
Vinyl is up because the sale of turntables has increased.


:)

...
this debate is so old.

but i do have to point out that today cds are *not* superior in sound quality. vinyl uses a much wider range of frequencies than cds. dvd-audio and sacd will be a better competitor to vinyl.

it is true that human ear cannot distinguish the minute differences. however what you "feel" counts for a lot. that's exactly what i meant by saying that there is a certain magic in the analog (vinyl) sound. i guess the term "feel the bass" really applies here.

[koreanmafia]

i plan on getting a basic setup pretty soon...should i just get the 1200s or a pair of cd players that are relatively the same price as the 1200s...would the players in the price range suk meaning they are not worth buying over the 1200s??

if i could afford the cdj1000 then i would get them but for now i only have enough for a pair of 1200s and a decent mixer

thanx
lata

[Majglow]

I use CDs... (probably one of the only here to)...

But that's just because I couldn't afford the music if I went the other way.

Someday, I'm going to switch... maybe when my job gets a bit stabler.

Anyway, my CD Players aren't anything fancy... they are Numark.

Anyway... if you have the $$ I would suggest going the vinyl way... besides it's soooo much cooler spinning vinyl ;)

[sintetika]

i spin techno, so for me it's nearly impossible to find music on cds.
i could download tracks from soulseek for example and burn them onto cds, but the sound quality is pretty bad at 128kbps.

and i'd never find 1/2 the tracks, especially the new stuff, that i can find in a record shop.

oh yeah there's also this whole concept of stealing music, and giving someting back to the producers :)

i'd say get 1200's then add cd decks.

[sonnyboy]

Originally posted by sintetika
i spin techno, so for me it's nearly impossible to find music on cds.
i could download tracks from soulseek for example and burn them onto cds, but the sound quality is pretty bad at 128khz.

and i'd never find 1/2 the tracks, especially the new stuff, that i can find in a record shop.

oh yeah there's also this whole concept of stealing music, and giving someting back to the producers :)

i'd say get 1200's then add cd decks.

i'd have to agree.
ever try finding house music songs on kazaa?? or at sam goody's? haha. nearly impossible, unless you get compilation albums. which shouldn't be used during mixes anyways...

[Just J]

Originally posted by sintetika
:)

...
this debate is so old.

but i do have to point out that today cds are *not* superior in sound quality. vinyl uses a much wider range of frequencies than cds. dvd-audio and sacd will be a better competitor to vinyl.

it is true that human ear cannot distinguish the minute differences. however what you "feel" counts for a lot. that's exactly what i meant by saying that there is a certain magic in the analog (vinyl) sound. i guess the term "feel the bass" really applies here.

lol, ya, almost as old as the "Electronic music isn't real music" debate. :lol:

Sonically, CDs are much more clear, and crisp, however, I agree, there are frequencies that come from vinyl that humans can't distinguish. BUT sonic reproduction from a digital source is better simply because there is a far smaller amount of noise introduced, and cds don't emphisize certain frequencies like tapes, and vinyl do, they leave it to the EQ. ;) Like I said, most analog sources are lucky if they can reproduce sound at a greater than 80db SN rate, even the worst CD players hover around 100db.

We could argue this forever, but it really doesn't matter now does it? It is simple fact that the sound humans hear will always be more clear and crisp when coming from a CD as opposed to an analog source (turn table, tape), simply because certain frequencies aren't stressed, and there is a far smaller level of noise.

Vinyl will probably go down in history as the medium that would never die. Hell, if memory serves me, it was one the first mass produced types of musical media. But it'll eventually go the way of the ghost, and like you said, DVDs are on the rise, so pretty soon we'll be seeing DJ DVD players.

[Just J]

Originally posted by sonnyboy
i'd have to agree.
ever try finding house music songs on kazaa?? or at sam goody's? haha. nearly impossible, unless you get compilation albums. which shouldn't be used during mixes anyways...

You're looking in the wrong places. I've been to music stores where they've had just about every song you could imagine on CD. I've ripped vinyl tracks to CDs for the old club I worked at. We couldn't use the turntables, because the rumble would blow the speakers.

[simpatico]

No no no!!!!!

With CDs, you lose a lot of sound information. For one... the frequency range is abridged compared to vinyl. Secondly, the sound is recorded in a binary format.

Imagine this, you take a smooth wave, and turn it into blocky steps. That's what happens when converting analog to digital. There is a LOT of information that is lost in the process. That's why companies like Pioneer create things like their Legato Link. That's why companies out there are producing products such as SuperCD and AudioDVDs.

CDs are extremely flawed. Yes... they are clean in their reproduction of music. But they are very cold compared to vinyl.

And as for the range of our hearing. Yes, our hearing is limited. But our sense of feeling is not. Although we might not hear some of the higher and lower tones coming off a record, we can certainly feel them. Music is not just something that's heard. But it's also felt.

[simpatico]

CD Players or Record Players?

That's your choice. I started w/ CD Players. Then I went to vinyl. Which do I prefer? I prefer vinyl. Records are easier to work with because the grooves are right there in front of you. You don't have to put the needle at the beginning of a track and fast forward to the part of the song you want to cue from.

But w/ CD players, you have things like Hot Cues, Instant start, Seamless Looping, etc. All great functions that increase the potential of what you can do w/ your music. You also have the ability to play CDs that you've burned, and that saves a ton of money on material.

But just like w/ Record Turntables, you need to get a good CD Turntable. I still have my CD players. But I plan on upgrading to CDJ-1000s eventually. I've learned to love the feel of vinyl. The CDJ-1000s brings CDs very close to that feel. :D

[sintetika]

Originally posted by simpatico
No no no!!!!!

With CDs, you lose a lot of sound information. For one... the frequency range is abridged compared to vinyl. Secondly, the sound is recorded in a binary format.

Imagine this, you take a smooth wave, and turn it into blocky steps. That's what happens when converting analog to digital. There is a LOT of information that is lost in the process. That's why companies like Pioneer create things like their Legato Link. That's why companies out there are producing products such as SuperCD and AudioDVDs.

CDs are extremely flawed. Yes... they are clean in their reproduction of music. But they are very cold compared to vinyl.

And as for the range of our hearing. Yes, our hearing is limited. But our sense of feeling is not. Although we might not hear some of the higher and lower tones coming off a record, we can certainly feel them. Music is not just something that's heard. But it's also felt.

:) i'm glad someone agrees

[Just J]

Originally posted by simpatico
No no no!!!!!

With CDs, you lose a lot of sound information. For one... the frequency range is abridged compared to vinyl. Secondly, the sound is recorded in a binary format.

Imagine this, you take a smooth wave, and turn it into blocky steps. That's what happens when converting analog to digital. There is a LOT of information that is lost in the process. That's why companies like Pioneer create things like their Legato Link. That's why companies out there are producing products such as SuperCD and AudioDVDs.

CDs are extremely flawed. Yes... they are clean in their reproduction of music. But they are very cold compared to vinyl.

And as for the range of our hearing. Yes, our hearing is limited. But our sense of feeling is not. Although we might not hear some of the higher and lower tones coming off a record, we can certainly feel them. Music is not just something that's heard. But it's also felt.

You must have missed this one:

I agree, there are frequencies that come from vinyl that humans can't distinguish. BUT sonic reproduction from a digital source is better simply because there is a far smaller amount of noise introduced, and cds don't emphisize certain frequencies like tapes, and vinyl do, they leave it to the EQ.

Sounds reproduced from a digital source will be clearer simply because there is less noise, and interferance. I'm speaking English here right?

A Song produced a 96KHz (the highest samplers can go now adays, so analog or not, it won't tip that number) and 24bits will be crisper and clearer when coming from a digital source.

I just noticed were all talking about totally different aspects of sound, read what I just posted carefully. If you disagree, you need to read your audio system specs more clearly.

[Just J]

One other thing, if you argue digital music isn't as good as analog, stop listening to "electronic music", since it's all produced digitally. :)

[simpatico]

So your emphasis is on the "cleaner" sound aspect of digital audio? As in... there is less noise in digital media.

My point is that analog has a richer sound. Which in my book stands for higher quality.

It's the difference between fluorescent lighting and incandescent lighting. Fluorescent is a non continuous light. Kind of like digital audio. Instead of the glow of a filiament, it's the flashing of gasses within a tube. Digital audio is on or off. That's how digital works. It may save you energy, but it's cold. And dim.

Now... incandescent lights are continuous. It's warm, rich, has levels. Yes, it uses more energy and a lot of heat is produced as a byproduct (noise). But the lighting is so much richer in what it is. It's more natural, etc.

See what I mean?

[simpatico]

Originally posted by Tribal 0n3
One other thing, if you argue digital music isn't as good as analog, stop listening to "electronic music", since it's all produced digitally. :)
You've got a point here. But how many CDs out there are truly recorded DDD? Out of all the CDs I have, only one is truly DDD. Most of the CDs are ADD. Some are AAD.

And keep in mind, voices are analog. So any sort of vocals would start off in analog as well.

[drewdee]

the clearer/crisper/cleaner sounds of digital recording and playback is usually negated by the brittle feeling that often accompanies it. The bonuses of our current digital technologies don't always translate into a better listening experience.

for example, why do all the "Groove" boxes from roland (like the mc-505) suck ass? because they're the digital remakes of the analog originals - which had analog circuitry and components. sure, digital is a lot more reliable and consistent from instrument to instrument, but it's precisely those artifacts of noise and small imperfections that make analog sound and feel good to listen to.

I hear what you're saying Tribal On3; all the benefits of digital > analog look right on paper, and make sense to the one side of the brain, but numbers aren't always everything...

and another thing, not all electronic music is produced digitally -- most of it is still produced on good old analog gear. Software and digital mixing consoles have changed the face of home-based writing and initial track production. But analog still rules supreme in the production or post-production process -- even tape reels are still used for some things, such as fattening up bass lines or warming up samples.

[sintetika]

:lol:

i was disagreeing with the statement that cd's are superior in sound quality.

now i'm going to disagree with the statement that all electronic music is produced digitally. well it's not... read up on it online.


anyway, analog simply sounds better today. why?
i have no idea, maybe because we are human and we like imperfection in the sound. or maybe because our brain can distinguish sound far beyond what our ears can technically "hear".

likewise, i don't know why allen & heath have tube inputs on their brand new $5K mixes. or why sound engineers world-wide prefer analog components when building sound systems and studios.

... do a simple test play the same track from your vinyl and then cd. and tell me which one sounds better? or even make a copy of your cd to a tape and play that... the tape will sound better.
(i hope you are not a robot, cause then cd will sound better :))

[Just J]

Originally posted by sintetika
:lol:

i was disagreeing with the statement that cd's are superior in sound quality.

now i'm going to disagree with the statement that all electronic music is produced digitally. well it's not... read up on it online.


anyway, analog simply sounds better today. why?
i have no idea, maybe because we are human and we like imperfection in the sound. or maybe because our brain can distinguish sound far beyond what our ears can technically "hear".

likewise, i don't know why allen & heath have tube inputs on their brand new $5K mixes. or why sound engineers world-wide prefer analog components when building sound systems and studios.

... do a simple test play the same track from your vinyl and then cd. and tell me which one sounds better? or even make a copy of your cd to a tape and play that... the tape will sound better.
(i hope you are not a robot, cause then cd will sound better :))

uhh, hell no, the tape sounds like crap, which is why I mix all my tracks via my PC, then put them on CD. I can rip a tape to MP3, and rip the same track from a CD. If you think the tape sounds better, you must love white noise. ;) Most tapes only reproduce sound from ~60hz-17khz. The CD sounds clearer, even when compared to the turntables.

The most noticable time this happens, is belive it or not, when I'm at the club I spin at. They have the amps turned WAY up, and the mixer turned WAY down. Aside from the amps just cranking up the expected noise from the wires, it amps up the noise from the tables. The CDs always sound cleaner, and crisper.

There is no debating the fact a digital source produces a cleaner sound. It's a fact, and you can look it up. A CD player can produce sound at 100+db SN ratio, Analog devices are LUCKY if they get past 80. CDs (digital media) doesn't suffer from much, if any wow and flutter, THD is way down (.01% is common), and the SN ratio is almost always around 100db. Not to mention the channel seperation of the Ortofon's are 23db max, compared to 86db on some CD mixers.

We're not talking Amps here, I'm not gonna argue that. Analog amps rock.

P.S. anything produced with the aide of a computer is digitally produced. Actually, if you want to get technical, anything with an IC is a digital device. :) A large number of the tracks I own are mastered via PC (MAC actually), and I know this from reading interveiws on the artists. Hell, if it ever comes in contact with a hard drive, or magnetic storage disk, it MUST be converted to a digital format first. Hell, the format most songs are converted to vinyl from is digital

I'm going to trim this thread down, and get rid of all this crap. Let's hope my edit will be something we all can agree on.

[Just J]

Originally posted by simpatico
So your emphasis is on the "cleaner" sound aspect of digital audio? As in... there is less noise in digital media.


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damnit!

P.S. Isn't Florescent light created by running a current thru an inert gas? Standard bulbs just run the current thru a metal.

[Just J]

Oh yea, I HATE white noise. I'll take a clean sound that's a bit "harsh" over a "warmer" sound with a ton of noise. When the music stops, I want to hear silence, not hiss.

[drewdee]

Originally posted by Tribal 0n3
There is no debating the fact a digital source produces a cleaner sound. It's a fact, and you can look it up.then how would you accomodate for sampling a human voice, or someone playing a percussion instrument?I'll take a clean sound that's a bit "harsh" over a "warmer" sound with a ton of noise.I would take neither -- analog devices that are utilized correctly with the right amount of gating/limiting will produce no more noise than a digital one. The reason your CD sounds better on that particular club system is because the system isn't being used correctly.

digital has it's advantages over analog in certain areas, but I personally prefer the warmth and rich tones of analog to the binary rigidity of digital. Really, it's those who are able to utilize the advantages of both systems that are able to produce and generate the most pleasing sounds.
----------------------------------
getting back to the original question: more and more DJ's are supplementing their turntable setup with single or dual CDJ sytems, such as the current industry best, the Pioneer CDJ 1000. Personally, for the style I play, most releases are not available in CD form, so for that reason and others I use vinyl. I'd love to add a CD player to my setup though, mainly to play out my own self-produced techno loops, or various samples that can be pitched up or down to match the bpm of the live track.

[Just J]

Originally posted by drewdee
[FONT=verdana]then how would you accomodate for sampling a human voice, or someone playing a percussion instrument?

Umm, we're not talking about live singing, or someone playing a guitar, we're talking about reading a track from digital media, or analog media.

I would take neither -- analog devices that are utilized correctly with the right amount of gating/limiting will produce no more noise than a digital one. The reason your CD sounds better on that particular club system is because the system isn't being used correctly.

Of course adding noise reducing devices will help, but something read via a digital source will almost always be cleaner at the source, which is my point. Why else do a large number of producers use DATs as the master as opposed to cut vinyl.

I know the club is using the system incorrectly, and that's why the noise from the analog turntables is noticable. My point is CDs produce very little noise when compared to a turntable, especially on that club's system. The system is actually very good, it's just the house DJ is a nitwit. He has it set up like that.

digital has it's advantages over analog in certain areas, but I personally prefer the warmth and rich tones of analog to the binary rigidity of digital. Really, it's those who are able to utilize the advantages of both systems that are able to produce and generate the most pleasing sounds.

Word. I like both, but I like my music clean. If the sound system is good, and the music is good, I'm happy. If the system is noisy, I'm pissed.

It seems Pat is the only one who's understood my point thus far.

[sintetika]

if u don't want ot hear hiss while listening to silence why bother with audio equipment at all? :)

the noise or "hiss" probably comes from other components, rather than vinyl itself. electrical current, length and quality of the cables, possible emf interference, quality ot the mixer, amplifier and speakers all play a role in the the clarity of the sound.
much more so, than the actual media.

on a properly setup sound system vinyl will sound very clear, rich and warm without any audiable hissing.

like drewdee said, chances are in the club you are speaking of the system is tuned for cds.

[Just J]

Originally posted by sintetika
if u don't want ot hear hiss while listening to silence why bother with audio equipment at all? :)

the noise or "hiss" probably comes from other components, rather than vinyl itself. electrical current, length and quality of the cables, possible emf interference, quality ot the mixer, amplifier and speakers all play a role in the the clarity of the sound.
much more so, than the actual media.

on a properly setup sound system vinyl will sound very clear, rich and warm without any audiable hissing.

like drewdee said, chances are in the club you are speaking of the system is tuned for cds.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. :P ;)

Good systems will produce little, to no noise when there is no sound coming from the medium. I don't mind the little popping noises vinyl makes, it sounds cool, but the EMS noise introduced in the circuts of poor systems (and thru crappy needles) pisses me off.

The house DJ at the club spins about 60/40 Vinyl/CDs. He's just a nitwit, so the system isn't using it's full potential. It's as simple as that. :)

I'm not denying a good system will always produce good results, I'm saying sound from a digital source will sound CLEANER (produce less noise) on the same system when compared to an analog medium.

It's simple. :)

[sintetika]

i feel the same way :)

on the paper (in theory) it is true. yes cds have a lesser s/n ratio. in realty i've heard cds and vinyl on the same excellent sound system and both sounded very clean (without any hiss or audible noise). however vinyl sounded more rich and full.

i invite you to come to nyc and give the phazon at vinyl a listen, i guarantee you'll be blown away by the quality, clarity and richness of the sound. the first time i heard it it was like an awakening for me. i've heard loud and good sound systems before, but this is a real work of art. they basically rebuilt the whole club around the sound system. .. anways what was i on about? :)

[Just J]

Originally posted by sintetika
i feel the same way :)

on the paper (in theory) it is true. yes cds have a lesser s/n ratio. in realty i've heard cds and vinyl on the same excellent sound system and both sounded very clean (without any hiss or audible noise). however vinyl sounded more rich and full.

i invite you to come to nyc and give the phazon at vinyl a listen, i guarantee you'll be blown away by the quality, clarity and richness of the sound. the first time i heard it it was like an awakening for me. i've heard loud and good sound systems before, but this is a real work of art. they basically rebuilt the whole club around the sound system. .. anways what was i on about? :)

we agree! :faints:

[simpatico]

A nice woman... warm, soft, cuddly, yummy, imperfect, etc = vinyl.

A cold vibrating sex toy... cold, inanimate, hard, always the same, etc = CD.

You pick! :lol:

[drewdee]

LOL!

hey Tribal, I understand what you're saying, and yes, I agree that it is easier to get clean, crisp sound from a CD (and CD decks) as opposed to vinyl and traditional turntables -- it doesn't mean that I prefer digital to analog, but I agree with your point. I think. ;)

[Just J]

Originally posted by simpatico
A nice woman... warm, soft, cuddly, yummy, imperfect, etc = vinyl.

A cold vibrating sex toy... cold, inanimate, hard, always the same, etc = CD.

You pick! :lol:

uhh, vibrating sex toy? Dude... you're scaring me.

[simpatico]

:lol: