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Irrational_Fear
08-13-2015, 07:00 AM
I know that variations on this topic have been done numerous times but despite trawling through old threads I couldn't find anything that answered my query satisfactorily- and I know everyone here secretly loves a good thread on subs! ;)

The long and short of it is all of the events we have done to date have been reasonably local, small events- a mixture of kids birthdays, 30th/40th/60th birthdays, and small weddings, but none exceeding 100 people. So actual dance floor capacity has never really gone above 50-60 people at any one time- normally closer to half that.

We have done all of these simply running a pair of EV zlx12p. They sound great, look great, and they are super portable. I appreciate they have their limits in terms of bass output, but for the events we have done this simply hasn't been an issue, and so far they have barely broken a sweat in terms of overall volume either. Having two of us allows me to fairly regularly check the dance-floor for any sound of clipping but in reality we are just not needing anywhere near the volume for that to be an issue at the moment.

However, we've been asked to do a couple of larger events off of the back of our last couple of parties- both cases where someone present has contacted us straight after the event and asked to book us, always a nice situation.

One of these upcoming events is 200 people total (realistically < 100 people dancefloor at any one time as it's still a small venue), and the second is for around 300 people in a slightly larger venue- still not big enough to have more than half of that number on the dance-floor though.

Requirements
We need extra sound for these (and hopefully more going forward), but neither event will necessarily be wanting excessive bass as the music is going to be predominantly a mix of current chart stuff, oldies, and classic party hits. Nothing too dance-heavy and minimal (if any) hip-hop / r&b etc.

So in terms of powered subs (that we can cross-over with the EV tops) we want something that will allow our tops to go loud enough to deal with the extra dance-floor capacity rather than concentrating on pure bass output. But we also need something that offers maximum portability (so large 18" boxes are out).

Budget-wise we don't want to go crazy, as with most of our events being smaller parties it will take a decent amount to recoup the cost. However I would rather pay more for a decent single unit (that we can pair up at a later date) than spend the same on a pair of inferior subs.

-I looked at the new EV eks15sp as a possibility but that is really at the absolute top of the budget- realistically it's more than we want to spend at this time.

-Another alternative was the EV zxa1 12" sub. I appreciate these aren't going to be the last word in bass-output but how would these do with allowing us more overall volume (with the zlxps crossed-over)?

As for the other makes out there, all recommendations appreciated.

Just to repeat though, our focus is on smaller events (we have no intention of doing anything bigger than these) and we only average 2 gigs per month, so we aren't looking for gym-capacity systems or prom setups etc. Nor are we looking for dance-music focused systems, as it's simply not what most of our customers are after.

To give some perspective, at two of our events we have actually been politely asked if we could turn the volume down slightly on our zlx12ps as the grandparents sat in the corner were struggling to talk to each other... This is when the zlx12ps were running approx 1/4 volume on the dsp. :spin:

mitchiemasha
08-13-2015, 08:28 AM
If you go with the 12's you might regret it later and need to expand again. That been said, they'll be fine. The only time I'd say avoid the 12's as a sub is if you were using 15's as the tops, it would be counter intuitive (if those are the right words). With the 12's you'd really be wanting 2 as diverting the sub energy from your tops (2x12") might leave you lacking around the cross over point and below. Meaning you'd end up with less 80-100hz than you already had.

You could get away with 1 18" crossing it really low 80hz, place it in the middle. Then if you need to expand again, no investment lost. Or 2 15's cross them higher around 100-125.

Depending on current offers I'd probably go with the 1 18". keeping the possibility for future expansion to 2.

Bill Fitzmaurice
08-13-2015, 09:03 AM
Another alternative was the EV zxa1 12" sub. I appreciate these aren't going to be the last word in bass-output but how would these do with allowing us more overall volume (with the zlxps crossed-over)?
If you want to extend the low end by one octave while maintaining the same output capability you have to double the driver displacement. That means to match two 1x12 tops you need four 1x12 subs. Adding one 1x12 sub to a pair of 1x12 tops would be a waste of time and money. The subs have to be the largest part of your system, not the smallest.

conanski
08-13-2015, 09:17 AM
I regularly send out a pair of ZLX12p with a single 18" sub(Mackie SRM1801) and this system does 150-200 quite nicely, when high passed at 100hz the ZLXs have another 6db of clean output. Your requirements appear to be quite modest so I doubt you would be disappointed with a good quality 15" sub, and you can always purchase a second later on if you feel the need. Are there any rental options in your area that you can test drive? The EV ZXa1 sub certainly is portable but I suspect it would run out of steam on those events where you could use a bit more output, while if you have a more powerful 15 or 18 sub you can always turn it down when you don't need it.

Irrational_Fear
08-13-2015, 09:37 AM
If you want to extend the low end by one octave while maintaining the same output capability you have to double the driver displacement. That means to match two 1x12 tops you need four 1x12 subs. Adding one 1x12 sub to a pair of 1x12 tops would be a waste of time and money. The subs have to be the largest part of your system, not the smallest.

Ta for that, the logic certainly makes sense. I did suspect the zxa1 would need to be in more quantity.

Irrational_Fear
08-13-2015, 09:44 AM
I regularly send out a pair of ZLX12p with a single 18" sub(Mackie SRM1801) and this system does 150-200 quite nicely, when high passed at 100hz the ZLXs have another 6db of clean output. Your requirements appear to be quite modest so I doubt you would be disappointed with a good quality 15" sub, and you can always purchase a second later on if you feel the need. Are there any rental options in your area that you can test drive? The EV ZXa1 sub certainly is portable but I suspect it would run out of steam on those events where you could use a bit more output, while if you have a more powerful 15 or 18 sub you can always turn it down when you don't need it.

That's good to hear. I've been leaning towards a single decent 15" sub for the moment on the basis we could add a second at a later date if needs be.

The rental option was what I was looking at, but unfortunately here in the UK (outside of the major towns/cities) the rental network looks pretty slim without doing a decent amount of travel. I've contacted several companies local to me and all they want to offer is 'iPod-DJ-in-a-box' type PA systems made up of bargain basement equipment. There are a couple of larger companies but they are too far the other way- only really dealing in full line-array type setups for small festivals and the like.

Seems to be a shortage of stuff in between! I found a single company that hired out some QSC gear, but only in packages- so it was either just 2 x tops or 2 x tops + 2 x subs. The cost of the 2+2 wouldn't be worth it financially, even taking into account the opportunity to trial the subs as the QSC subs are ultimately out of our budget anyway!

I guess it comes down to finding a decent powered 15" sub within budget, to which we could potentially add a second at a later date.

light-o-matic
08-13-2015, 11:47 AM
Yes it has been said already in different ways.. but basically, adding a sub is not just about "adding a little bass" but about taking away responsibility from the tops so that their capacity is used in the range they do best. This means that the subs must handle ALL the bass. So you cannot add a sub to just "add" the bass you want.. you must add a sub or subs that produce all the bass you were getting before PLUS the desired increase. As Bill said, a single 12 is not going to do it, you might end up doing not much better than you had before.. or worse.... You are talking about doubling your crowd size, so you need to add some significant horsepower. It is the nature of sound that each real step up requires doubling your output, so you cannot do this without a substantial addition.

A pair of ZXA1-SUB put together (right next to each other, in the middle) would work and would be the minimum.. definitely not a single one. The Yamaha DXS12 is well reviewed and claims significantly more output, so might be better for you (at greater size and weight, but it is still only 75 pounds).. and if you insist on a single 12 inch sub, I would choose that one.. but really I would still want a pair of them.

But the EKX15SP.. now that is more like it.. with rated 133dB peak output and response (-3) down to 45 Hz, vs 126dB and I think 54Hz for the ZXA1-SUB.. those are not small differences! So basically one EKX equals 2 (coupled) of the ZXA1-SUB in terms of output, and goes deeper.. at 58 lbs (32Kg) it seems the obvious best option.

Here in the USA the ZXA1-SUB can be found for $600, the DXS12 for $700 and the EKX-15SP for $800... really in terms output for the money and for the weight the EKX is the clear winner.. the others only being worth it if size and price matter a lot more than output.. and I don't think that is the case here. Really it is the best choice because it seems you are growing and the EKX15SP with it's deeper bass will grow with you, because it will be worth it to add more of them later. Two of them paired with your ZLX12's would be a nicely matched system.

Al Poulin
08-13-2015, 04:36 PM
I've read from more than one person that it takes a pair of the EV ZX1A subs to match the output of a single DXS12, so the extra 100$ is certainly Worth it. the tradeoff, of course, is the the DXS12 is significantly bigger and heavier, the extra cabinet volume (size) and bandpass design translating into more output capability...

Al

Irrational_Fear
08-14-2015, 10:29 AM
But the EKX15SP.. now that is more like it.. with rated 133dB peak output and response (-3) down to 45 Hz, vs 126dB and I think 54Hz for the ZXA1-SUB.. those are not small differences! So basically one EKX equals 2 (coupled) of the ZXA1-SUB in terms of output, and goes deeper.. at 58 lbs (32Kg) it seems the obvious best option.

Here in the USA the ZXA1-SUB can be found for $600, the DXS12 for $700 and the EKX-15SP for $800... really in terms output for the money and for the weight the EKX is the clear winner.. the others only being worth it if size and price matter a lot more than output.. and I don't think that is the case here. Really it is the best choice because it seems you are growing and the EKX15SP with it's deeper bass will grow with you, because it will be worth it to add more of them later. Two of them paired with your ZLX12's would be a nicely matched system.

Yeah it looks like this will make the most sense. Here in the UK a single ekx15sp is £700 whilst a pair of zxa1s would be around £788. But as you say the single eks15sp would likely be the smarter choice, both in terms of immediate impact and also the significant step up it would give us if we add a second later on.

The DXS-12 is around £525 here which is more within our budget, but if the ekx15sp offers enough over it to make it worth the extra £175 then we'll go with that- I know it's a much less important factor but I also like the idea of sticking with the same brand for aesthetic purposes, particular when the EV stuff is as clean/professional looking as it is.

The main concern with the larger subs is purely portability, but at 26kg the ekx15sp isn't too bad and the dimensions mean it will still fit in the car.

Al Poulin
08-14-2015, 10:50 AM
Yeah it looks like this will make the most sense. Here in the UK a single ekx15sp is £700 whilst a pair of zxa1s would be around £788. But as you say the single eks15sp would likely be the smarter choice, both in terms of immediate impact and also the significant step up it would give us if we add a second later on.

The DXS-12 is around £525 here which is more within our budget, but if the ekx15sp offers enough over it to make it worth the extra £175 then we'll go with that- I know it's a much less important factor but I also like the idea of sticking with the same brand for aesthetic purposes, particular when the EV stuff is as clean/professional looking as it is.

The main concern with the larger subs is purely portability, but at 26kg the ekx15sp isn't too bad and the dimensions mean it will still fit in the car.

While I am happy and have no issues with my DXS12s, I would pay the little extra for the EV (especially if I was using just a single sub) simply for the slightly better (deeper) extension and likely better sound quality.

Al

rhymes116
08-17-2015, 07:59 PM
Yes it has been said already in different ways.. but basically, adding a sub is not just about "adding a little bass" but about taking away responsibility from the tops so that their capacity is used in the range they do best. This means that the subs must handle ALL the bass. So you cannot add a sub to just "add" the bass you want.. you must add a sub or subs that produce all the bass you were getting before PLUS the desired increase. As Bill said, a single 12 is not going to do it, you might end up doing not much better than you had before.. or worse.... You are talking about doubling your crowd size, so you need to add some significant horsepower. It is the nature of sound that each real step up requires doubling your output, so you cannot do this without a substantial addition.

A pair of ZXA1-SUB put together (right next to each other, in the middle) would work and would be the minimum.. definitely not a single one. The Yamaha DXS12 is well reviewed and claims significantly more output, so might be better for you (at greater size and weight, but it is still only 75 pounds).. and if you insist on a single 12 inch sub, I would choose that one.. but really I would still want a pair of them.

But the EKX15SP.. now that is more like it.. with rated 133dB peak output and response (-3) down to 45 Hz, vs 126dB and I think 54Hz for the ZXA1-SUB.. those are not small differences! So basically one EKX equals 2 (coupled) of the ZXA1-SUB in terms of output, and goes deeper.. at 58 lbs (32Kg) it seems the obvious best option.

Here in the USA the ZXA1-SUB can be found for $600, the DXS12 for $700 and the EKX-15SP for $800... really in terms output for the money and for the weight the EKX is the clear winner.. the others only being worth it if size and price matter a lot more than output.. and I don't think that is the case here. Really it is the best choice because it seems you are growing and the EKX15SP with it's deeper bass will grow with you, because it will be worth it to add more of them later. Two of them paired with your ZLX12's would be a nicely matched system.

Based on OP's requirements I agree with this!

Irrational_Fear
08-19-2015, 04:10 PM
Based on OP's requirements I agree with this!

Yeah we have agreed to try the EKX 15sp, hopefully ordering in the next couple of days.

We've got a 200 people wedding at the end of Aug so it will be good to see how it performs. The idea being that if we get on ok with it we'll look to pick up a second.

Irrational_Fear
08-30-2015, 01:34 PM
Just a quick update:

We went with an EV ekx-15sp and used it for the first time at a wedding this weekend. All I can say is wow!

For a 15" sub it hits incredibly hard. We played background music during dinner with approx 80 guests, then had 200 total for the evening. We had the zlx12s running the 100hz cross-over alongside the sub and even during the peak of the evening we had the sub running at -8db and it was still properly thumping. Which suggests we have a heck of a lot of headroom for the future.

The best thing though was how good the overall sound was with the zlx's. It complements them fantastically well. We got numerous complements on the sound from the guests, and also from the in-house wedding coordinator who has inquired about our availability for some future bookings. Couldn't really ask for much more for the relatively reasonable outlay.

Getting it out of the box

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q748/squirrelofwoe/11891399_10153646108020337_8547708577393779412_o_z pswurpm0b5.jpg

At the wedding yesterday- you can just see the 'EV' light at the bottom to the left of the left truss tower (as you face them), with the lights of the 2 zlx's showing just above the facade. The setup on the right of the pic belonged to a fantastic soul band that also played for a while.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q748/squirrelofwoe/6_zpspjhdoeew.jpg

I also got the sub into the back of my car ok which was a main factor in the choice of the 15".

Thanks all for the responses, I've rep'd where possible- apparently Light-o-matic I need to spread some rep first!

Incognito
08-30-2015, 02:40 PM
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q748/squirrelofwoe/11891399_10153646108020337_8547708577393779412_o_z pswurpm0b5.jpg


Nice little setup, perfect for the kind of gigs you're into. Glad it all worked out for you.

Irrational_Fear
08-30-2015, 02:47 PM
Nice little setup, perfect for the kind of gigs you're into. Glad it all worked out for you.

Cheers! I reckon we might get another ekx-15sp at the start of next year if we keep getting asked to do slightly larger gigs.

light-o-matic
08-31-2015, 11:28 AM
Cool, awesome! Glad it all worked out so well. Your setup looks really nice.

Re the -8 setting on the sub.. this does not tell you how much headroom you have. The gain setting on the sub will vary depending on the output level on your mixer.. if the mixer output is higher, the gain setting will be lower.. for the same output. And vice versa. So with a low output from the mixer your speaker/sub gain could be all the way up.. it does not mean you have less headroom. The only really easy and sure way to know how much headroom you have (without any special tools or accurate specs on the equipment) is to briefly turn the gain up until the clip/limit light on the sub (or top) starts to blink.. make note of that setting, then turn down to your normal operating level. The difference between those two settings is how many dB headroom you have. But if your powered speakers contain clip limiters, then it is ok if those lights blink just a bit sometimes if you are really cranking it.. if you don't make a habit of it, a bit of limiting now and then is ok.

Based on the specs I would say that the one sub will take you pretty far with those tops.. I still think it is likely that you will see the sub run out of capacity (go into limiting) before the tops do, if you are playing newer music. With two of those subs placed together, the subs will outrun the tops.. but there's nothing wrong with that. The ZLX's are a great speaker for the money hence why they are suggested so often here.. but they are not super high output. Eventually you'll outgrow the tops which is a good problem to have :)

Irrational_Fear
09-01-2015, 04:26 AM
Yeah that does make sense regarding headroom, I guess I was actually referring more to us having our master volume actually set slightly lower than usual, despite the marked increase in overall sound output. Poor use of terms on my part! In any event, we are extremely impressed with it's performance, was definitely the right choice. :)

prof_fate
09-01-2015, 09:43 AM
Volume (in a space) is a function of moving air.
To get more 'volume' you need to move more air - so more or bigger speakers is the solution.

Now if you're talking dB ALL speakers will go to 100.
Or are you talking distortion? As you ask a speaker to produce a wider range (from sub to high) and crank up the gain you will get more distortion (perceived or real).

Now adding a sub will give you percevied more volume, better sound and less distortion as each speaker is more narrowly focused.

there are many ways to get more 'volume' - the throw of your speakers (90d spread vs 60d) can be used. 15" instead of 12" tops. More speakers (this has it's own issues).

And what sounds good? To you, to the crowd? IME you gotta be really bad for the crowd to know.

I've got 10" tops (good yamaha ones), 12 and 15" peavey tops.
The yamaha have more 'punch', the 12"s are my fave and i use the 15" at bigger events, outside, etc. They just sound a bit dull to me.


As to your sub issue... If you want thump for modern dance music you probably have to think of 18" subs and maybe 2 of them for the larger crowds.

If all you want is to extend the sound, split the freq to let the tops work less hard, then smaller subs should suffice.

I have a pair of the ev zlxa1 subs and they sound great. Will they shake the chandeliers? Pound your chest? No. Do you need that? NEED, not want! For weddings and most things, no, I don't think so.

For a school dance or prom? Probably.

A pair of the EV speakers will give you some thump when the gain (input signal) is turned up to them. I got mine used, one for $300 and a second for $400 off craigslist. Small, light and solid.

I"m debating what to do next...the bose and hk systems run multiple 10 and 12" subs and sound great - usually not floor thumpers though. Small/light/not costly 15" speakers would be my ideal..but they're few and far between.

I've heard the behry eurolive 18" sub and one is plenty for a wedding, but it's HUGE. I've had rec for carvin 18" subs, $550 and 64lb but not small.

I"m tempted to get 2 more 12" subs...not sure how it will all sound so still thinking.

I know that variations on this topic have been done numerous times but despite trawling through old threads I couldn't find anything that answered my query satisfactorily- and I know everyone here secretly loves a good thread on subs! ;)

The long and short of it is all of the events we have done to date have been reasonably local, small events- a mixture of kids birthdays, 30th/40th/60th birthdays, and small weddings, but none exceeding 100 people. So actual dance floor capacity has never really gone above 50-60 people at any one time- normally closer to half that.

We have done all of these simply running a pair of EV zlx12p. They sound great, look great, and they are super portable. I appreciate they have their limits in terms of bass output, but for the events we have done this simply hasn't been an issue, and so far they have barely broken a sweat in terms of overall volume either. Having two of us allows me to fairly regularly check the dance-floor for any sound of clipping but in reality we are just not needing anywhere near the volume for that to be an issue at the moment.

However, we've been asked to do a couple of larger events off of the back of our last couple of parties- both cases where someone present has contacted us straight after the event and asked to book us, always a nice situation.

One of these upcoming events is 200 people total (realistically < 100 people dancefloor at any one time as it's still a small venue), and the second is for around 300 people in a slightly larger venue- still not big enough to have more than half of that number on the dance-floor though.

Requirements
We need extra sound for these (and hopefully more going forward), but neither event will necessarily be wanting excessive bass as the music is going to be predominantly a mix of current chart stuff, oldies, and classic party hits. Nothing too dance-heavy and minimal (if any) hip-hop / r&b etc.

So in terms of powered subs (that we can cross-over with the EV tops) we want something that will allow our tops to go loud enough to deal with the extra dance-floor capacity rather than concentrating on pure bass output. But we also need something that offers maximum portability (so large 18" boxes are out).

Budget-wise we don't want to go crazy, as with most of our events being smaller parties it will take a decent amount to recoup the cost. However I would rather pay more for a decent single unit (that we can pair up at a later date) than spend the same on a pair of inferior subs.

-I looked at the new EV eks15sp as a possibility but that is really at the absolute top of the budget- realistically it's more than we want to spend at this time.

-Another alternative was the EV zxa1 12" sub. I appreciate these aren't going to be the last word in bass-output but how would these do with allowing us more overall volume (with the zlxps crossed-over)?

As for the other makes out there, all recommendations appreciated.

Just to repeat though, our focus is on smaller events (we have no intention of doing anything bigger than these) and we only average 2 gigs per month, so we aren't looking for gym-capacity systems or prom setups etc. Nor are we looking for dance-music focused systems, as it's simply not what most of our customers are after.

To give some perspective, at two of our events we have actually been politely asked if we could turn the volume down slightly on our zlx12ps as the grandparents sat in the corner were struggling to talk to each other... This is when the zlx12ps were running approx 1/4 volume on the dsp. :spin:

prof_fate
09-01-2015, 09:50 AM
So...
I have a system with two 12" tops and want to add the bass for a HS dance say, or make it thump.

I have 2 12" subs (dedicated to that purpose and twice teh watts of the tops). Sounds good to me. But you're saying I need 2 more? I've been thinking of that, vs a pair of bigger (15 or 18"" due to cost and weight (i'm not getting younger) and size (storage and transport).

So the math...if I got this right or wrong let me know..(per side) a 12" speaker has an area of 113 sq in. So a sub should be twice that, or 226. An 18" is 245 sq. in., so that's pretty close.

And 2 12" subs would of course be double so 226sq in.

the fact that the area of speaker cone is spread over more speakers isn't the issue, it's the need for total sq in that counts?



If you want to extend the low end by one octave while maintaining the same output capability you have to double the driver displacement. That means to match two 1x12 tops you need four 1x12 subs. Adding one 1x12 sub to a pair of 1x12 tops would be a waste of time and money. The subs have to be the largest part of your system, not the smallest.

SonidoTempestad
09-01-2015, 03:42 PM
Just a quick update:

We went with an EV ekx-15sp and used it for the first time at a wedding this weekend. All I can say is wow!

For a 15" sub it hits incredibly hard. We played background music during dinner with approx 80 guests, then had 200 total for the evening. We had the zlx12s running the 100hz cross-over alongside the sub and even during the peak of the evening we had the sub running at -8db and it was still properly thumping. Which suggests we have a heck of a lot of headroom for the future.

The best thing though was how good the overall sound was with the zlx's. It complements them fantastically well. We got numerous complements on the sound from the guests, and also from the in-house wedding coordinator who has inquired about our availability for some future bookings. Couldn't really ask for much more for the relatively reasonable outlay.

Getting it out of the box

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q748/squirrelofwoe/11891399_10153646108020337_8547708577393779412_o_z pswurpm0b5.jpg

At the wedding yesterday- you can just see the 'EV' light at the bottom to the left of the left truss tower (as you face them), with the lights of the 2 zlx's showing just above the facade. The setup on the right of the pic belonged to a fantastic soul band that also played for a while.

http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q748/squirrelofwoe/6_zpspjhdoeew.jpg

I also got the sub into the back of my car ok which was a main factor in the choice of the 15".

Thanks all for the responses, I've rep'd where possible- apparently Light-o-matic I need to spread some rep first!

How big of a venue do you think a pair of EV EKX 18sp and a pair of EV EKX 12p would be able to handle?