PDA

View Full Version : Sub Question



DJHoss
02-05-2012, 09:16 PM
I have two Mackie Thump th-15a cabs as my tops. I love em to death. Mono system, fed through mixer via VDJ. I want to add a lot more low end to my system to take the stress off of my thumps so I can push the whole system louder. Which sub(s) under $1k and are active with crossover out for the tops would I be looking at? Want top quality if I can. One or two be better? Budget is strictly $1K, I only have $300 right now and won't be getting any money till late this year.

Thanks :tup:

windspeed36
02-05-2012, 10:35 PM
JBL PRX618S XLF is a pretty decent sub and around $1000US, probably get them for $700 used.

DJHoss
02-05-2012, 11:23 PM
Plenty of punch? I need a sub that will deliver the chest rattling bass. Folded horn maybe?

ksmalk08
02-05-2012, 11:31 PM
Even with a sub - the TH-15's aren't going to reach any sort of SPL that will allow you to do bigger events. What kind of events do you envision doing once you get the sub?

The PRX618SXLF is a good option as mentioned before and should be able to get it for around $1000 from the right rep.

windspeed36
02-05-2012, 11:34 PM
if you want chest rattling bass for the entire audience you may need to add another 0 to that budget.

The JBL is a pretty good sub, of course when you get 2 of them coupled together you'll get i think its 6dB more however coupling isn't always great (see http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=135944.0 for more info on sub placement) Another good one is the QSC KW181 for around the same price. Apparently RCF make some really good powered subs but i don't know the product line too well.

One thing i would suggest is replacing your tops first and renting sub's if you need them. The Thumps aren't that great and run out of steam after about 80-100 people at club level SPL

DJHoss
02-06-2012, 12:03 AM
For the next 4 years (I'm 14 btw haha) I plan on doing mostly school dances and events, Small reunions, parties indoors and out, I ain't worried bout my thumps, you take some bass off em but leave enough on to make it sound good, I'll get close the 116db max on em. Which is all ill be needing at this stage, they'll do better with the bass stress on a sub than on them. I'll upgrade my top cabs later when the thumps decide to crap out. Ain't worried bout pushin club level spl, just mobile DJ gigs that are small-medium venue at this point. Just need the stress of of my top cabs, and some more bass. At this stage in the game, should I just match my thumps to mackie's thump th18a sub? $800 bucks new

ksmalk08
02-06-2012, 12:16 AM
I plan on doing mostly school dances and events, Small reunions, parties indoors and out

mobile DJ gigs that are small-medium venue at this point.

should I just match my thumps to mackie's thump th18a sub? $800 bucks new

School Dances with two TH-15's? I think you will need more than that. Medium sized venues? I still think you will need more, unless you are doing vocal reinforcement for a quiet crowd.

Keep in mind whatever sub you do go with that it has a built in crossover, or factor in the price of an outboard one.

In terms of the TH-18A (SRM1801) sub - personally I have never been a fan of Mackie gear.

A while ago there were rumors that Mackie/LOUD Tech. was not doing well - I don't know if this is still true. In my opinion their stuff has gotten lower quality since LOUD took over. The SRM450's used to be made in Italy in collaboration with RCF... not so anymore obviously.

I think I would save the money you would have spent towards a sub and put it towards tops - if you are going to be in this for the long-haul.

At the $1000+ point you have decent options like the QSC KW181, PRX618S-XLF and others...

DJHoss
02-06-2012, 12:31 AM
Oh, detail I forgot to explain: my school dances exist in a small cafeteria and they don't get much bigger than 80 people that show. It ain't a huge school, 400 kids in middle school and high school combined. Contrary to what you are saying, these thumps actually sound really good for the $700 I paid for em paired with a crappy mixer and some stands. Highs are pretty good, miss are good and low end is actually surprisingly good for a 2 way cab..at least out of what ive heard (a bunch of older jbl's, berhinger, etc). Like I said, the spl is plenty for what I need to do, I dot need rock concert spl outdoors, and I've already had the cops called on me for noise complaint, and the houses sit on2-3 acres in my neighborhood and my neighbors are both about 500 yards away from my studio, so spl ain't a problem. It's just subs. I guess I'll pour the money into a decent sub and upgrade cabs later , just dial the sub down to where it matches the spl output of the tips. I was planning on using the subs built in crossovers as well, I dot wanna hassle with more equipment than I need to. Thanks for the help, froM what I've gathered, a jbl's pec 618s is the away to go.

ksmalk08
02-06-2012, 02:48 AM
Contrary to what you are saying, these thumps actually sound really good for the $700

I never mentioned anything about how they sound, only about how loud they can get. Actually for the price I do think they sound OK.

If your school dances are around 80 people - cool - go with it. I think even for 80 people in a small cafeteria I might want a bit more headroom on the highs/mids, but hey thats just me. I do similar events in similar spaces (dance music stuff for students) and have been very happy with my QSC K12's.

If you are going the route of shelling out for a quality sub now, and upgrading tops later (to do bigger gigs) - then you have a bunch of options, including the PRX618S-XLF.

Incognito
02-06-2012, 02:53 AM
If you are going the route of shelling out for a quality sub now, and upgrading tops later (to do bigger gigs) - then you have a bunch of options, including the PRX618S-XLF.

After running those Thumps with the JBL PRX618XLF for awhile he'll want to change out the Thumps anyway because the weak link in his system would very quickly become clear during gigs when trying to push to higher SPL.

windspeed36
02-06-2012, 03:00 AM
You're looking at purchasing later this year yeah? There's a rumor going around at the moment that is i guess being confirmed by the movement of manuals and spec sheets on JBL's website to the archives, that the SRX700 and VRX900 line array series are being discontinued and the rumor is that they are changing the magnets in the drivers due to the neodymium shortage/control by china.

This means that you hopefully should be able to pick up a really good deal either on a new or used VRX918SP which is a truly amazing subwoofer. They use the same 2268H driver as the SRX728/718 subwoofers that pump seriously hard. The VRX918SP is self powered and has quite a name for itself. New at the moment they retail about $1300 used or around $1900 new. If the rumours are correct, by the end of the year you should be able to afford yourself quite the subwoofer.

ksmalk08
02-06-2012, 03:03 AM
After running those Thumps with the JBL PRX618XLF for awhile he'll want to change out the Thumps anyway because the weak link in his system would very quickly become clear during gigs when trying to push to higher SPL.

I agree.

Once he saves up some money he can either upgrade the tops now (and buy a sub later)... or buy a sub now (and upgrade tops later).

In either case both will probably need to get done if he has the intentions of being in this for the long haul, and doing medium sized outdoor gigs/HS dances like he stated earlier. If he anticipates, for the next 4 years, to do events with no more than 80 people, at lower spl, indoors, in a smallish area... then OK.

ksmalk08
02-06-2012, 03:07 AM
Yyou hopefully should be able to pick up a really good deal either on a new or used VRX918SP which is a truly amazing subwoofer. They use the same 2268H driver as the SRX728/718 subwoofers that pump seriously hard. The VRX918SP is self powered and has quite a name for itself. New at the moment they retail about $1300 used or around $1900 new. If the rumours are correct, by the end of the year you should be able to afford yourself quite the subwoofer.

I own a VRX918SP myself and can confirm it kicks some serious ass, especially for a Mobile DJ sub. In terms of the general market it is one of the best overall powered subs you'll find being widely distributed on consumer-level websites.

I heard it being used at a few outdoor concerts and was ultimately so swayed by the performance that I had to buy one myself.

The processing in it is tour-grade with the DPC-2 Drivepack module.

tizlaney
02-07-2012, 03:28 PM
Road this rodeo.....save up until you can get some premium gear before you invest in too much second rate gear. I would say get A nice sub that way when you can afford to upgrade your tops you could then find another matching sub (always remember models change fairly frequently in low end gear and stays slightly more constant in the higher end stuff).

DJ Watty
02-07-2012, 03:40 PM
I vote for subs first then upgrade tops. The Thumps are not all that bad, and with a subwoofer they are even better. I own 4 Th15 cabs and I beat the hell out of them.

I have upgraded to the QSC KW152 tops and JBL prx618xlf subs. You would love the 618s. And they play well with my th15s when I pair them up.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=44.723965,-73.438611

windspeed36
02-07-2012, 03:58 PM
Let us know in a few months what you manage to pick up..

DJAkash
02-07-2012, 09:18 PM
I have done gigs before with other DJ's and one of them the other DJ offered to run sound, I said okay.
He brought a pair of TH-15a's to a 100 people even with a small packed hall. We kept cranking them up, ran them to their full clear potential.
These things did not even do justice to our small dancefloor, unless we put the volume to a scratchy level which is no good. So we called our friend and
he brought us some K8's I believe, and those small tiny guys killed the Th15a's so much that we just turned the mackies off.
Maybe your thinking, the less I spend while making money the better? Well think about this, the better your sound, the more impression that is left on the
potential clients, and all these crazy expensive lights some people mock for being overpriced, pay for themselves with clients who adore them. Try getting
repeat gigs over 10 times in one year from the same family otherwise. If you need speaker suggestions just ask us on the forum!!! :tup:

Sween
02-07-2012, 09:35 PM
No one has mentioned the Yorkville LS801P.

Yes it's big and heavy... but it delivers a pretty good wallop of bass for $1200.

You will definitely want to upgrade those Thumps soon...

DYM
02-07-2012, 09:50 PM
I would say dump $1000 on the last of the surviving RCF 312A's... gonna put your Thumps to shame.... when doing larger gigs like school dances, turn down the bass and have the RCF's fill the room. Works great and gets the job done... but when you score another $1600 a sub is a must. I'm in the process of adding a sub now :tup:

cvdeco16
02-07-2012, 10:25 PM
...froM what I've gathered, a jbl's pec 618s is the away to go.

Another recommendation for the JBL PRX618s-XLF. I absolutely love mine. I have it paired with the PRX612m's. If you do decide to go with the JBL, just make sure that it's in fact the XLF - there's a world of difference between the 618s and 618s-XLF.

DJHoss
02-08-2012, 07:08 PM
Yeah, as I have little to no source of income lately, being 14, the thumps were a sweet deal at the time. I will upgrade them later, I appreciate the recommendations. Will definitely ask about them later :tup: As for now, from what I've gathered, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a SRX 700 or a VRX 900. Thanks for the help guys, I was originally going to cheap out on a Mackie TH-18A or a PV118D. Thanks again :tup:

windspeed36
02-08-2012, 08:18 PM
Yeah, as I have little to no source of income lately, being 14, the thumps were a sweet deal at the time. I will upgrade them later, I appreciate the recommendations. Will definitely ask about them later :tup: As for now, from what I've gathered, I'll keep my eyes peeled for a good deal on a SRX 700 or a VRX 900. Thanks for the help guys, I was originally going to cheap out on a Mackie TH-18A or a PV118D. Thanks again :tup:

Keeping in mind that the SRX700 series is passive whereas the VRX900 series has both passive and active models

ampnation
02-11-2012, 06:02 PM
If you're looking to stay well under $1000 you won't get the top performers in the "usual suspects" lineup of subs but you can get something that is reliable, and decent sounding and spl output that is well matched to your thumps. I think there's the secret... don't let spl output drive your selection, but rather quality.

Subs that come immediately to mind are the LS720P or a used HPR181i (yorkville and qsc respectively) and of those two, the LS720P is going to be the one with the crossover built in. Make sure to download and read the manual before purchasing to make sure it does what you want it to.

Folded horns have a reputation as being one note wonders giving you a less musical nature.

Bill Fitzmaurice
02-11-2012, 07:32 PM
Folded horns have a reputation as being one note wonders giving you a less musical nature.Only those which are poorly designed. But that does very much apply to most commercial offerings in the OPs price range.

ampnation
02-11-2012, 08:31 PM
true Bill. usually people are thinking of Cerwin Vega.

DJHoss
02-12-2012, 12:41 AM
If you're looking to stay well under $1000 you won't get the top performers in the "usual suspects" lineup of subs but you can get something that is reliable, and decent sounding and spl output that is well matched to your thumps. I think there's the secret... don't let spl output drive your selection, but rather quality.

Subs that come immediately to mind are the LS720P or a used HPR181i (yorkville and qsc respectively) and of those two, the LS720P is going to be the one with the crossover built in. Make sure to download and read the manual before purchasing to make sure it does what you want it to.

Folded horns have a reputation as being one note wonders giving you a less musical nature.

Im liking that yorkville you pointed out, but now I'm more worded that a fifteen inch woofers gonna make more of a kick instead of a smooth thump that you can feel like an eighteen inch woofer. No? Just wondering:tup:

Bill Fitzmaurice
02-12-2012, 09:15 AM
I'm more worded that a fifteen inch woofers gonna make more of a kick instead of a smooth thump that you can feel like an eighteen inch woofer. You're assuming that woofer size alone is responsible for the sound. It isn't. It's far more complicated than that.

DJHoss
02-12-2012, 09:33 AM
I know the mechanics of a sub, I'm not stupid lol. But I have heard that a fifteen incher would produce more of a kick from the woofer than a 18". Both have a 3" driver I believe is the standard, and a neoprene cone. And I know air flow and the. An design affects it too but I was just wondering if that's the case here or not with the Yorkville.

Al Poulin
02-12-2012, 11:52 AM
Even the Yorkville LS701P which has dual 10'' woofers would kick the Tapco\Mackie Thump 18 sub's ass. The Thump 18 powered subs are known to be VERY weak and run out of gas as quickly as the Thump tops - why they might make a good match but will offer very mediocre performance as a system.

Maybe the best thing for now is save your money until you can afford a worthwile upgrade. Or you could also rent a sub to see if it helps. You might eventually want to sell your Thumps and get some higher performance tops with a good sub or two to create a better performing system overall. You need to see if it is worth it for you thoug - depending on the number of gigs you get in the future.

Al

Bill Fitzmaurice
02-12-2012, 12:24 PM
I have heard that a fifteen incher would produce more of a kick from the woofer than a 18"..You heard wrong. Driver size in and of itself only affects dispersion, nothing else. Every other aspect is determined by the sum total of all the driver T/S specs and the cabinet design.

Incognito
02-12-2012, 12:37 PM
You heard wrong. Driver size in and of itself only affects dispersion, nothing else. Every other aspect is determined by the sum total of all the driver T/S specs and the cabinet design.

Very true, I used to have a couple B&C 15TBX100 loaded reflex subs that would easily go lower & louder then some of the 18" loaded reflex subs other DJ's where using.

Zoukwave
02-14-2012, 12:49 AM
If you're a moble DJ and spining in a small room, then something you'll want to consider is portability. (I don't know why this is never discussed on these forums). Most of these powered subwoofers are 90 lbs or more. Have you tried carrying around something of that weight? Personally, whatever I buy I have to lug up and down two flights of stairs in the building where I live, AND I DON'T GET HELP! So a serious load is the last thing I want. I can see if your domicile is at ground level, and you feel you'll never have to climb steps to any venues. Then you can just buy a small dolly. But if you're all on your own, you may want to consider a smaller sub.

Incognito
02-14-2012, 04:24 AM
If you're a moble DJ and spining in a small room, then something you'll want to consider is portability. (I don't know why this is never discussed on these forums). Most of these powered subwoofers are 90 lbs or more. Have you tried carrying around something of that weight? Personally, whatever I buy I have to lug up and down two flights of stairs in the building where I live, AND I DON'T GET HELP! So a serious load is the last thing I want. I can see if your domicile is at ground level, and you feel you'll never have to climb steps to any venues. Then you can just buy a small dolly. But if you're all on your own, you may want to consider a smaller sub.

Most decent powered subs start around the 70 pound mark (unless you only spin in very small rooms then you may not even require a sub in the first place), with the options of powered subs below this mark generally not worth considering as far as versatility in venues are concerned. You want something versatile so that you're not limited to the small gigs & once you get to the point that you want to do larger gigs you're not then faced with the fact that you would then need to upgrade to larger subs.

Zoukwave
02-25-2012, 04:42 PM
The db Technologies Sub 12 weighs in at 57lbs. I have not actually heard the unit with my own ears, but db subs receive great reviews.

Incognito
02-25-2012, 05:02 PM
The db Technologies Sub 12 weighs in at 57lbs. I have not actually heard the unit with my own ears, but db subs receive great reviews.

DB Technologies gets good reviews in general, this doesn't mean all of their gear is great just look at JBL with the JRX series.

The "sub" in question you refer to isn't anything special & is really pushing the limits of using the term sub to describe it. It has a -10db (not what you would base a speakers true performance on since it's like referring to a speakers peak power handling) of 40hz & a max ouput of 127db. This isn't something you'd use as a true sub but something you would use to give a full range sound to smaller speakers such as 8" or 10" reflex tops.

http://www.dbtechnologies.com/index.php?id=22&L=0&tx_amdbt_pi1%5Bcategory%5D=4&tx_amdbt_pi1%5Bproduct%5D=145#

ampnation
02-25-2012, 05:04 PM
I don't know the numbers, but IIRC Bill Fitzmaurice's horn loaded subs, although large, are lightweight and can get pretty loud. Obviously this is a generalization because he has many designs.

Considerations:
They're passive but a rack case with one or two Peavey IPR's would be lightweight even if it is a separate piece to load.
Size -- They take up more cu. ft. than the bass reflex designs they compete with. They don't generally take more floor space.
Weight -- Lightweight and because some designs are pretty tall and because you can build them with casters, they're easy to load.
If you build multiple cabs, you can gain bass extension as well as SPL
You can customize to a point to get speakers that meet YOUR needs.
Price -- very good pricing but consider your labor if this is a primary consideration.
Resale -- Generally speaking, you won't get as much of your investment back out of these. Mr. Nightro was an exception because he sold them based on performances.

The trick to these horn loaded cabs (not just Bill's designs btw) is that they take advantage of the long path between driver and exit to build SPL so they're very efficient. You just have to consider the size. They also work better in herds, gaining SPL and bass extension by having 2, 4 or more working in conjunction.

Bill Fitzmaurice
02-25-2012, 05:11 PM
The "sub" in question you refer to isn't anything special & is really pushing the limits of using the term sub to describe it.
+1. -10dB at 40 Hz is not a subwoofer.

Incognito
02-25-2012, 05:15 PM
I don't know the numbers, but IIRC Bill Fitzmaurice's horn loaded subs, although large, are lightweight and can get pretty loud. Obviously this is a generalization because he has many designs.

Considerations:
They're passive but a rack case with one or two Peavey IPR's would be lightweight even if it is a separate piece to load.
Size -- They take up more cu. ft. than the bass reflex designs they compete with. They don't generally take more floor space.
Weight -- Lightweight and because some designs are pretty tall and because you can build them with casters, they're easy to load.
If you build multiple cabs, you can gain bass extension as well as SPL
You can customize to a point to get speakers that meet YOUR needs.
Price -- very good pricing but consider your labor if this is a primary consideration.
Resale -- Generally speaking, you won't get as much of your investment back out of these. Mr. Nightro was an exception because he sold them based on performances.

The trick to these horn loaded cabs (not just Bill's designs btw) is that they take advantage of the long path between driver and exit to build SPL so they're very efficient. You just have to consider the size. They also work better in herds, gaining SPL and bass extension by having 2, 4 or more working in conjunction.

Only problem is that he's looking for an active sub.

ampnation
02-25-2012, 07:58 PM
Only problem is that he's looking for an active sub.

He might be boxing himself in by limiting his choices that way - I don't know. I glommed onto the weight issue and it seems to me that many people who really would prefer a powerful sub end up with something less because they get one of what I would call, the compromise boxes. I think the KSub, the Sub12 and the LS720P are examples. They are probably all very good for certain applications but aren't going to give you the same thing larger subs can give and most of those larger subs are heavy. That is why I presented the BFM option. With some of the DSP amps available these days, a passive system can have many of the benefits of an active box.

Incognito
02-25-2012, 08:01 PM
He might be boxing himself in by limiting his choices that way - I don't know. I glommed onto the weight issue and it seems to me that many people who really would prefer a powerful sub end up with something less because they get one of what I would call, the compromise boxes. I think the KSub, the Sub12 and the LS720P are examples. They are probably all very good for certain applications but aren't going to give you the same thing larger subs can give and most of those larger subs are heavy. That is why I presented the BFM option. With some of the DSP amps available these days, a passive system can have many of the benefits of an active box.

agreed, I was going to make the same suggestion for BFM myself but it seemed he was focused on powered subs & I got the impression he was looking for something more commercial/ plug & play.

DJHoss
02-26-2012, 03:21 PM
agreed, I was going to make the same suggestion for BFM myself but it seemed he was focused on powered subs & I got the impression he was looking for something more commercial/ plug & play.

I was looking for powered, because it seemed that I might get more bang for my buck as they have built in crossovers. But, it is slowly coming to me that I could be alot more flexible if I just throw an amp and a crossover into a rack for a sub or two, and get some prx series powered tops, maybe. I just did a gig with my thumps the other night in a good sized cafeteria, and I was clipping all night long. Good sound, just not loud enough or powerful enough.

Bill Fitzmaurice
02-26-2012, 04:15 PM
I was looking for powered, because it seemed that I might get more bang for my buck as they have built in crossovers. But, it is slowly coming to me that I could be alot more flexible if I just throw an amp and a crossover into a rack for a sub .
On-board seems to be easier to deal with, but not really. All it accomplishes is to move the physical location of the amps from one box to another. Set-up is somewhat simplified, but at the cost of flexibility. There's no such thing as a free lunch. As for a crossover, the latest amps have them, as well as many other DSP features, built-in.

ampnation
02-26-2012, 08:04 PM
Bill, What if any experience have your users had using the IPR amps with your subs? It seems to me that they were going to have DSP versions but that was either cancelled or delayed.

Bill Fitzmaurice
02-26-2012, 09:00 PM
Bill, What if any experience have your users had using the IPR amps with your subs? It seems to me that they were going to have DSP versions but that was either cancelled or delayed.
You have to ask them.