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bnr
06-10-2014, 01:50 PM
Hey everyone.

I used to play trance quite often, but over the past few years, i've become more of a house/deep house fan. I want to get back into trance again [although i think i may have chosen a bad time to do so after just going through BP's trance chart lol].

I've also been getting more into harmonic mixing using the camelot system. So here's my question, how often do you follow the camelot system and is it a 'rule' in trance? I ask this because melodic mixes just sound so much better in trance music, since it is such a melody-driven genre, but i find myself becoming 'stuck' to the wheel and concentrating more on the key than other factors in the mix.

Thanks for replying.

Maxey
06-10-2014, 02:30 PM
Ive found that if you add or subtract 3 from the key, it sounds pretty good. I try to avoid sticking rigidly to the keys and use it more of a guide as to whether I should mix quickly or do a longer mix if they are in key. I also find that once I get to know tracks, I start picking tracks which are in key without thinking. Basically, harmonic mixes sound great but dont let it stop you from playing tracks you want.

JackStalk
06-10-2014, 03:17 PM
I almost always mix trance in comparable key. Trance is traditionally mixed at longer time periods (1-2 minutes) so having the melody/beats of both tracks in relative keys makes the mix sound very smooth and harmonic.

Irrational_Fear
06-11-2014, 02:41 AM
Trance is traditionally mixed at longer time periods (1-2 minutes) so having the melody/beats of both tracks in relative keys makes the mix sound very smooth and harmonic.

^^This.

That said, I've personally never worked out the key of my tracks so harmonic mixing for me is very much a case of what sounds right. To me it's fairly obvious when two tracks aren't working together harmonically and I'll usually pick up on it whilst cueing the track up. I'll occasionally get the odd one slip through the net that isn't apparent until it's live in the mix but these can normally be 'smoothed' out with the EQs / filters.

Most of my trance stuff is on vinyl so working out the keys would be relying upon my ears anyway- therefore I just leave it for when I'm mixing.

But yes- whichever way you choose to do it I would be trying to get the mixes in key with trance, but don't become a slave to the Camelot (or other) system. I've experimented with it before and found that sometimes I'd psychologically 'believe' a mix sounded better than it did purely because I knew it followed the wheel. It sounds weird but this was quite a noticeable thing for me so I quickly abandoned it and went back to the freedom of mixing what 'sounds' good.

This is why knowing my tracks well is so important to me- as a track is playing I will be conscious of other tracks in my collection that would work well with it, or at least particular aspects of it. Obviously I don't get it right all the time but it at least keeps the mind thinking a couple of tracks ahead. Some of these will be in key and some of them won't, but I don't know that until I cue it up- and I'm certain there will have been cases where I have mixed tracks that have sounded great which wouldn't have been selected had I been using the Camelot system or some such.

Also, if you've got tracks where there isn't going to be much in the way of melody overlapping then the beats themselves can be as important as the key. You can get two tracks in perfect key but if the beat of the two tracks don't mesh it is still going to sound messy. :)

ChrisHynds
06-11-2014, 07:36 AM
Highly dependent on the sub genre you're mixing, if you're mixing Tech or Psy Trance you can often get away with a quick sharp fade that will allow you to jump around the wheel easily, but if you're mixing progressive or uplifting, they are very heavily melodic based sub genre's and generally longer blends, so they sound like shit if they aren't mixed in key, there are always exceptions to the rule, don't restrict yourself to the key chart, use it as a guide but have the initiative to play around with your tracks and mix by ear not by a program. Having said that, MIK is an awesome tool and I personally use it for every set I play.

mr_ragz
06-11-2014, 07:20 PM
I agree with Chris that MIK is an awesome tool, especially for trance. I don't really use it so much when I'm mixing house and stuff (since its rare these days anyways) but its very hard for me to make good mixes without it honestly. I just don't have the ear for that kind of thing. With that said, I have this hanging on the board right above my turntables, at home at least:

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj211/sarumanza/mixchart.jpg

I will throw in a disclaimer. This chart is very effective, but not fool proof. Charts and software will never replace being able to "just know" what song is going to go perfectly with the one you're playing. That takes skill and practice. At least I have that - sometimes -

ChEeZeBaLL
06-11-2014, 07:55 PM
although i think i may have chosen a bad time to do so after just going through BP's trance chart lol

Ignore the beatport charts completely, they're terrible (most of the stuff on the trance chart I don't even consider trance music). There's lots of great trance being released right now, you just have to do a bit of digging to find it.

Here's some of the tracks I've purchased recently:

http://www.beatport.com/release/flying-cities/1249252

http://www.beatport.com/track/bittersweet-temple-one-remix/5138108

http://www.beatport.com/track/venus-original-mix/4316669

http://www.beatport.com/track/the-sun-rises-in-your-eyes-song-for-heroes-temple-one-remix/4154002

http://www.beatport.com/track/flames-dreamy-energetic-remix/5057816

http://www.beatport.com/track/dark-side-original-mix/5137937

http://www.beatport.com/track/the-ultimate-destination-original-mix/4647607

http://www.beatport.com/track/moroccan-roll-original-mix/5224617

http://www.beatport.com/track/terraforming-original-mix/5145439

http://www.beatport.com/release/11th-hour-fly-deep/8800

http://www.beatport.com/track/sundown-sneijder-remix/4997012

http://www.beatport.com/release/vinyl-sh!t/1235745

http://www.beatport.com/track/ethereal-original-mix/4903890

http://www.beatport.com/track/indescribable-feeling-original-mix/5060787

http://www.beatport.com/track/tornated-another-world-energetic-mix/4892680

http://www.beatport.com/track/valiance-tranceangel-remix/4461086

http://www.beatport.com/track/hear-my-scream-tranceye-remix/4862711

http://www.beatport.com/release/forget-the-past/1175723

http://www.beatport.com/track/damage-original-mix/4928050

http://www.beatport.com/track/u-mark-sherrys-outburst-remix/4851083

http://www.beatport.com/release/brush-strokes/1184431

http://www.beatport.com/track/bastard-original-mix/3097674

http://www.beatport.com/track/firefly-original-mix/4627388

http://www.beatport.com/track/june-and-july-original-club/4899485

http://www.beatport.com/release/spasm/1300985

I usually look up a track I like on youtube, and then look in the related videos to find other tracks (it works quite well). I'll also look up a specific track on discogs and then browse other tracks by the same artist or tracks that are on the same label, and then listen to audio samples of those tracks on youtube or beatport. I'll browse tracks from the same artist / label on beatport as well, and occasionally the beatport recommend bot at the bottom of the beatport page will give some good recommendations.

JackStalk
06-12-2014, 10:25 AM
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj211/sarumanza/mixchart.jpg
-

This is definitely a good guide to get started, but once you become proficient mixing in key you can break the rules when you learn your tracks well. I regularly jump three semitones (example: 1A->4A) and it sounds perfect. It's very relative to the tracks youre mixing, but a good chart to learn the basics of harmonic mixing.

bnr
06-12-2014, 01:50 PM
Thanks for all the replies guys.

I've been doing a couple mixes using the same ten songs using keys and then not using them just to compare how it sounds. Melodic mixing seems to almost be a must for me. As chris pointed out, it makes a big difference for the uplifting and progressive stuff, which is more my taste.

Now to find some decent tunes.


Ignore the beatport charts completely, they're terrible (most of the stuff on the trance chart I don't even consider trance music). There's lots of great trance being released right now, you just have to do a bit of digging to find it.

Here's some of the tracks I've purchased recently:



Thanks for your list, i'll definitely take a listen to those.

bnr
06-12-2014, 01:51 PM
I agree with Chris that MIK is an awesome tool, especially for trance. I don't really use it so much when I'm mixing house and stuff (since its rare these days anyways) but its very hard for me to make good mixes without it honestly. I just don't have the ear for that kind of thing. With that said, I have this hanging on the board right above my turntables, at home at least:

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj211/sarumanza/mixchart.jpg

I will throw in a disclaimer. This chart is very effective, but not fool proof. Charts and software will never replace being able to "just know" what song is going to go perfectly with the one you're playing. That takes skill and practice. At least I have that - sometimes -

Interesting. I've only been doing +1, -1 mixes, and it's pretty boring after a while to be honest.

ChEeZeBaLL
06-12-2014, 02:49 PM
I have Mixed In Key and I tried doing the whole harmonic thing for a while, but I found that it was too limiting in terms of when I can play what. I prefer to know the structure of the tracks I'm playing and mix them in a way where noticeable key clashing is minimal.

In my opinion, the overall feeling and flow of a mix is far more important than each track being in a similar key. Here's a mix I made recently:
http://www.geoffledak.com/music/Geoff%20Ledak%20-%20Discernible%20Thought.mp3

Transitions are at: 6:30, 12:20, 17:35, 23:46, 31:00, 36:34, 43:45 (tracks are in same key), 49:42, 54:43 (tracks are in same key), 62:27

RunningToZion
06-15-2014, 02:59 PM
I am totally fond of using this system in order to generate more "flow" within my sets, I am however a newcomer to the art of mixing but learned a great deal over the past month or so. I've made a mix with the idea to use the Camelot system throughout, maybe you could gain something from checking it out.
PS: Its progressive psy
https://soundcloud.com/peroy-nel/excessive-progressive

mr_ragz
06-16-2014, 07:01 PM
This is definitely a good guide to get started, but once you become proficient mixing in key you can break the rules when you learn your tracks well. I regularly jump three semitones (example: 1A->4A) and it sounds perfect. It's very relative to the tracks youre mixing, but a good chart to learn the basics of harmonic mixing.

I would really like to know more of these little tricks. I can remember 1A>4A (I'm assuming 4A>1A works as well?) Any other good ones?

ChrisHynds
06-16-2014, 08:19 PM
I would really like to know more of these little tricks. I can remember 1A>4A (I'm assuming 4A>1A works as well?) Any other good ones?

use your ears, best trick in the book

JackStalk
06-17-2014, 01:23 PM
I would really like to know more of these little tricks. I can remember 1A>4A (I'm assuming 4A>1A works as well?) Any other good ones?

4a-11a works, I'd say 4a-1a usually brings down the energy of the room. I mostly only mix forwards unless it's a mashup between two comparative keys (8A->1A) or a single semitone drop (4a->3a)

mr_ragz
06-17-2014, 08:53 PM
use your ears, best trick in the book

Keep your troll city comments to yourself :P


4a-11a works, I'd say 4a-1a usually brings down the energy of the room. I mostly only mix forwards unless it's a mashup between two comparative keys (8A->1A) or a single semitone drop (4a->3a)

Mixing forward eh? Hmmmm, I guess I never really paid attention to mixing forward or backwards. Good little tip, unfortunately I can't rep you again yet lol

Maxey
06-21-2014, 01:21 PM
As a rough guide I tend to find that the keys 3 apart work well together so 3, 6, 9 and 12 work together; 1, 4, 7 and 10 work, and 2, 5, 8 and 11 work.
Keys exactly 3 apart and with a different tonality work especially well so 3a and 6b will generally work very well. These wont work as well as mixing numbers next to each other but it does mean that you have a much wider range of tracks you can play while being vaguely harmonically coherent.

mosesalexander
07-03-2014, 09:48 PM
it is a good practice to NOT go over +2 or -2. It thins out the kick in the song. Also, songs that have vocals do not sound good if you change the key to the positive side ( + ) because it sounds like the person is on helium. It sounds fine, when the vocal is -1, or -2. Mixed in key is a very accurate program, but the thing is that if you are using Traktor Pro, these guys have invented their own key for their program. So you would have to decipher the keys with the Camelot system.

So you know about harmonic mixing. Example: Current Song is 5A (Key is at 0). The incoming song would sound perfect with it being 5A. If you want to increase the "energy," mixing it to 6A would work also. In conclusion, the incoming song would have a smooth transition if it was either 5A, 4A, 6A, or even 5B, and even 6B and 4B.

Another trick to mixing is changing the key. Great DJ's can change the key by ear, but I cannot do this by ear yet. Changing keys is a neat trick that you can do to a song. Remember, the general rule is withing +2 or -2. Example: Song 1 is in F# Minor (11A). If you want it to play in F you would change it 1 semitone, which would be -1. If you want it to play in G, you would add +1 to the key. If you want song 1 to play G#/Ab, you would increase the key +2. Example 1: So now if you had a song (song 1 with key at 0) playing in 10B (DMajor) , a good incoming track would be either 8B, 3B, 5B, or 12B. If you decided to mix song 2 that was in 5B into song 1, you would change the key on song 2 to -1. Example 2: another example is if you had song 1 with an Original key of 3A Bb-minor with a key change of -2; song 1 is now currently at 1A or G#/Ab. So if you wanted to incorporate the camelot system, you can mix song 2 into song 1 that has a key of 12A, 1A, 2A, 1B, 12B, 2B--keeping in mind that song 2's key is at 0.

Complicated yet? I have attached a picture for you to use to help you see what I'm talking about

Here is an example of what it all sounds like. Please excuse me because this is my first mix as a bedroom DJ.
http://www.mixcloud.com/mosesalexander/moses-alexanders-first-mix-live-at-princeton-square/

light-o-matic
07-03-2014, 10:57 PM
I have been doing this by ear for years now.. sometimes (not always) going through several tracks in headphones if I need to.. to find one that works well. But this past weekend I tried for the first time to use MIK and to select tracks "by the numbers".. and yea, in some ways it helped, in some ways it actually just messed me up because mixes that, by the numbers, should have been in compatible keys, didn't sound right.. yet others that were in less ideal keys worked out fine.

So yea.. I struggled with it a little bit. I'd say in some ways it made my mixing better, in some ways worse.

But I think it's a valuable tool to have around.. I'm putting the camelot #'s in the track titles now so I can glance at them and take a hint from them while still going by ear.. so that eventually I'll be both checking that, and checking them by ear.. without feeling like MIK is actually slowing me down...

Sedna
07-09-2014, 06:16 PM
Here's some simple rules to follow, abbreviated to avoid wall of text status.

1. Mixing in key is great. Follow it as a general rule, but remember; if you feel like a song is going to mix in well, you're probably right. Let your intuition guide you. The rules can be broken.

2. Don't follow charts. Don't follow the trance "top 10." It's all terrible. Dig. Check out J00F and Airwave's labels.

3. Don't get stuck on playing only new tunes. If you have a track from 2009 that you love that fits in, play it. People don't hear this shit often; nothing is going to sound old or outdated.