Mixing Trance

[nconkl1]

So I've been watching videos and reading guides (and I still haven't even bought anything lol) and I have a quick question. I've looked over a few set lists of Armin and noticed that sometimes he doesn't play the full song of one track and will mix in another track half way through the first. Is there some sort of hard and fast rule to mixing trance or can you really just do whatever sounds good? If anyone has some examples, that would also help :)


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[alazydj]

Like all music, you just mix what sounds good.

Hard and fast rules are a quick way to not become original in your mixing.

Some rules you can sit down and reflect on are harmonic mixing, phrase matching and thematic matching (songs about love, or about sex, about drugs, etc.)

[nconkl1]

That sounds good to me man. I was watching ella something on Youtube on mixing trance and he was saying how trance songs are typically mixed one after another and the whole track is played before the other track is mixed in and I thought I'd ask on how valid that was.


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[Vernski]

No hard and fast rules....obviously one needs to follow the usual mixing conventions ie. phrasing.

Armin was my first dj I ever heard and he is a master at getting the best out of a track and combining it with the rest of the mix.




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[nconkl1]

No hard and fast rules....obviously one needs to follow the usual mixing conventions ie. phrasing.

Armin was my first dj I ever heard and he is a master at getting the best out of a track and combining it with the rest of the mix.




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I absolutely love Armin. The artists he uses in his mixes are really great and when I start I'm really considering using some of the same tracks and artists.


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[nconkl1]

Is it always so that you'll play a few tracks that build into a climax and then do it all over? I've noticed that while listening to a few mixes.


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[Vernski]

Yeah kind of, during a set or mix, your'e gradually building energy. Let it hit a peak so everyone gets their euphoric fix. Then take if back a bit and start building it up again.

A common mistake is to start a set at full throttle and there's nowhere for it to go except as to keep it the same or backwards.

Listeners consciously or subconsciously appreciate/need the waves of energy during a mix.


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[nconkl1]

Yeah kind of, during a set or mix, your'e gradually building energy. Let it hit a peak so everyone gets their euphoric fix. Then take if back a bit and start building it up again.

A common mistake is to start a set at full throttle and there's nowhere for it to go except as to keep it the same or backwards.

Listeners consciously or subconsciously appreciate/need the waves of energy during a mix.


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Perfect! Thanks! What's the lowest bpm trance is at? Is it 130?


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[Vernski]

Ok, trance is more a state of mind than a style of music and bpm.

Trance reaches into other genres like progressive house, tech house, techno. It's more about the mix giving you the "Trance" effect.

So bpms could be starting as low as 80bpm with a chill out track intro....

Remember no real rules like you asked originally.


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[nconkl1]

Fair enough. I just wanted to ask because when I go on beatport and I search trance music I want to know what range of BPMs I should be expecting. But you're right. No rules :)


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[Vernski]

Yeah, remember that the tagging on Beatport isn't very accurate. There are loads of great tracks in the wrong genre.

Just find stuff that connects with you and go from there. So don't just look in trance.

Check out other genres too :tup:


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[nconkl1]

I will indeed. I like house and progressive too


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[Vernski]

If you want some direction, go to the trance sub forum and check out the sanctuary. It's i sticky thread.

Page 2 has a wall will heaps of mixes from different guys here. You should check it out.


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[nconkl1]

There's a trance sub forum? Whaaaa?


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[Vernski]

http://www.djforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?27-Trance


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[nconkl1]

Doesn't say I have access to that. Weird.


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[Vernski]

Just go to the main forum. Scroll down to genres. You'll find it.


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[nconkl1]

Just go to the main forum. Scroll down to genres. You'll find it.


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Oh cool thanks. Never saw that. Usually on my phone though lol. Thanks!


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[JackStalk]

Most trance is traditionally mixed as one-song-after-another from what I see and do myself. There's a few well known guys doing mashups and dropping samples within a playing track, but it can be quite difficult to pull off successfully because the main idea behind mixing trance is the overall feeling of the rise and fall of the tracks. It's easy to accidently throw in a bad sample and throw off your rhythm.

Also, a lot of the stuff Armin has been playing recently (at least live) is leaning more toward the 128-130 commercial house style than trance. He still plays a little bit of trance at the end of his sets, but over the past few years the amount of trance he plays (at least in the US) has diminished. I love him to death, but it saddens me to see a lot of the former trance DJs slowing down their sets and playing more house-style stuff. IF you look at his set from ultra, it should be called A State Of House with a few trance mashups thrown in during the last 20 minutes. I understand he's trying to appeal to a larger audience though and I still play his newer stuff (Save My Night and Ping Pong have been going over well lately.)

[nconkl1]

I love Armin and honestly thought he played trance. Can you explain the difference between trance and house then? Because I thought house was like Hardwell and such. Where you get big bass and hard hits. I thought trance was more Arps and higher leads which I thought Armin was playing.


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[Vernski]

It's trouse :lol:


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[nconkl1]

It's trouse :lol:


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o.O isn't that just called progressive trance then? Lol. I know nothing about the genre distinctions. Give me something with a stabby lead or an Arp and some percussion and I'm good.


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[Vernski]

Trance genre generally is shit because it's leaning towards all that EDM progressive/electro house crap. Joining the words trance and house gives you trouse.

Search beyond the obvious....




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[nconkl1]

I don't know what you mean by "all that EDM progressive/electro house crap". Lol and obviously trance + house = trouse. That much I gathered. Just trying to figure out the difference between genres now. What I thought was trance is not. You have brought my whole world tumbling down sir.


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[Vernski]

Haha, don't let me spoil it for you. What I've learned and the advice I give is don't pigeon hole yourself to a genre. Just search for stuff that hits home to you. Your style and identity will take care of itself in the process.


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[nconkl1]

That's pretty fair advice man. Thanks. I'll search beatport when it comes to practicing and figure out what sounds like home to me. Not gonna lie though and whatever genre it is, whatever Armin plays at his sets is awesome lol


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[JackStalk]

In this Ultra set, he starts out with house and then moves to trance somewhere around 20 minutes in. He's really good at blurring the lines, but a lot of "trance djs" just play straight trance and don't mess with house.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq7z6WpeB0w

[nconkl1]

If that's his ultra set this year I've listened to that a lot lol. I love that set but had no idea it was house music

But is all good because I like house I guess lol. I love that track list

And side note: I was watching a video of how to DJ with Armin van Buuren and he was saying how he cuts out the intros on all his songs that he plays. Is that normal? It makes sense to me so that you can mix in from the first beat of a track. Just thought id ask though

EDIT2: Got to work and was looking at Beatport and I like songs from "Progressive House, House and Trance" (as defined by beatport). Some of these songs are played by Armin! So whoever said he doesn't play trance was right lol. There are some songs defined by beatport as trance that he plays but there are quite a few artists and songs from the progressive house genre. Would those three genres make an effective mix? Because I like the music in those three; it really gets me moving.


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[JackStalk]

He actually had two sets at Ultra. His Gaia set on Sunday was more incognito and he played more underground trance including some of his old hits (blue fear is my alltime favorite).

Beatport's genre tags are absolute garbage, you can't really define tracks based on their chart but it's usually about 75% accurate. I actually mix Deep, Progressive, House, and Trance so I'm in the same style as you. I tend to mix "good music" regardless of genre. It shouldnt ever really be about the genre, as long as it's good and fits your flow then you should use it.

The "How To DJ" video is quite old now, I think it's almost four years old from when he was still using CDJ-1000MK3s. The track in question (LED There Be Light by Rank1) has a really long intro before the first beat, so that's why he cut out the intro. It all depends on your playstyle, I usually have three cue points saved on any given track:

1 - The first beat of the track (standard)
2 - About a minute before the vocals/main leads start (64 bars-ish?)
3 - 16-32 bars before the vocals/main leads start (for quick/power mixing)

It's all relative to the music and what tracks you're mixing, it does get quite boring if you're mixing only on intros/outros the whole night. You've gotta be able to bring something new to the table and experiment with different transitions and techniques of introducing new tracks.

[nconkl1]

That's a really informative response! Thanks! So it sounds like we have the same style. I may be asking you for tips when I start lol. Yeah I could tell the video was old but it definitely did help.

I'll try not to go by beatport's genres lol. I'll go off what sounds good and use them as a guide. I just happened to pick a few tracks from all those genres and liked them all. So I'll mix those and just mix what I like and flows good with me

I'm actually also listening to that Gaia mix right now at work lol


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[JackStalk]

Having a few cue points on each track is beneficial also in case you accidently miss a start point when you're playing live. We've all done it, you're getting really into the music and then "oops I was supposed to hit play just now". This way you can still get the next track going without having to go nuts trying to find an alternate cue-in to use. My favorite all-time ultra set was armin in 2012 I think. I still use half of the tracks from that set regularly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmnzoCPjdAo

So much energy in this set, such a good tracklist.

[nconkl1]

Aw man 2012? I'll have to listen to that one. I listened to tomorrow world and tomorrow land and UMF 2013 but not 2012. I'll give it a listen! I'm also confused as to what cue points are for :(.


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[JackStalk]

Armin goes over cue points in his video if you watched it :)

[LALaw]

Excellent thread. There are no hard and fast rules, so learn from the start and do what works for you

[JackStalk]

http://i.lvme.me/tvq8xhd.jpg

[nconkl1]

Armin goes over cue points in his video if you watched it :)

He did and the explanation he gave confuses me now that I think about it. I get why you'd want a cue at the first beat of a track but why else would you want one? Moreover, what are cue points used for? For example, you're playing track A and start mixing in track B at the first beat on it. Why would you use a cue point during that mix of two songs?


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[JackStalk]

There are two things, hot cues and cue points. A cue point is just a pre-set part of a track that you can jump to and start playback from. A hot cue (A/B/C) in the video is a more advanced feature for cutting/looping/editing a song while it's playing to give more of a live feel. You can also cut out a whole verse or section of a track completely with the hot cue feature.

Cues are invaluable to a DJ so you can always have a perfect starting or sample point for a mix. They're traditionally only used to start the mix, but it saves you the time having to find that first beat of the track every single time you mix it. It's like a bookmark. The other technique you can use a cue point for is to sample an incoming track before you start it. If I cue up the main vocal for B while track A is playing, I can tease and sample that vocal over track A, then go back to the original cue at the start of track B, then start the mix. There's really a lot of fun things you can do with loops and cues.

[nconkl1]

That's a really great answer and helps a lot. I'll be sure to mess around with it all when I start. Thanks so much for your help!


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[nconkl1]

Bought my first tracks from Beatport...in mp3 format. Ugh why am I stupid lol. Should have done WAV. I didn't know WAV was better quality than mp3 lol.


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[JackStalk]

Unless you're playing on a big high-quality system, the sound quality difference is negligible and almost exactly the same between mp3/wav. 99% of listeners wont be able to tell the difference live. I always use MP3, they're so much smaller and you can fit more tracks on your media device.

[nconkl1]

That's perfect then. I suppose I can put this other question in here too. I'm watching a video on Serato's website and see something called Smart Sync. It's an option within Serato but how is this different than using the sync button on a controller?

EDIT: oh it's essentially the same thing but he goes over beat sync, tempo sync and one other and now I'm confused lol. When you're normally beat matching are you doing both? You get the tempo of track B to track A and then you match up the beats? Does the Sync button do both of those things?

And where can I get intro tracks for my mixes?

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[xblink]

No rules in my opinion :)

[nconkl1]

I know I've asked this before - about energy level. You start slow and bring it up then back down and back up, etc. But I'm wondering what those low parts of a song could be? A long string section? A vocals only section? Piano? Anything like that? And if there's a slow part in a song you like and then that's also the same song you want to use to bring the energy level back up, but the slow part normally comes after the high energy part, would that work if you brought in the slow part first then cued to the fast part? Just thinking out loud. Let me know what you all think!


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[diceallion]

THIS IS JUST A FUCKING FANTASTIC SET AND VIDEO TO WATCH.

I have a lot of respect for this DJ, he deserves shit loads of respect, you can literally see the passion in his eyes and body language.


Now seriously.. a quick question to all the pro DJ's on the forum, music is FN blasting... How the hell do your headphones seriously cancel out the sound to listen in on cue???? I own a shitty pair, I get that... But what headphones can give you proper listening when you have 1 000 000 0000 watts pounding on you?

2:15 best Jesus pose ever!!!

Im not going to lie, Im takin a cheesy moment right now.......... I wanna be like him!!! In my own way lol.


+1 rep for video share.



Having a few cue points on each track is beneficial also in case you accidently miss a start point when you're playing live. We've all done it, you're getting really into the music and then "oops I was supposed to hit play just now". This way you can still get the next track going without having to go nuts trying to find an alternate cue-in to use. My favorite all-time ultra set was armin in 2012 I think. I still use half of the tracks from that set regularly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmnzoCPjdAo

So much energy in this set, such a good tracklist.

[Ceegeeaye]

Offtopic but, Armin is a really great DJ! I'm going to one of his events on May 1st! ^_^ I would drop dead if armin was on this forum giving tips and advices!

[Buszaj]

He doesn't have the main PA aimed at him. On a massive stage like that you just have to balance your monitor system with the PA "backsplash". Often times you'll turn down the monitor a bit when cueing in the headphones. It's not a problem at all.

As for energy levels, you have to think about the song as a whole. Of course an intro or main drop will have more energy than an airy breakdown. But you must listen to the track in its entirety, and compare the overall energy to other tracks. A banging 140BPM stadium trance track will have a lot more energy than a 136BPM vocal trance track, for example.

It's about looking at the big picture in a trance set and creating a flow of energy and almost mini-sets within a larger set. That is what makes a great trance DJ/set.

[DJ Difficult]

Now seriously.. a quick question to all the pro DJ's on the forum, music is FN blasting... How the hell do your headphones seriously cancel out the sound to listen in on cue???? I own a shitty pair, I get that... But what headphones can give you proper listening when you have 1 000 000 0000 watts pounding on you?

I'm not a pro but I have been in the middle of a big soundsystem with my headphones and my answer to your question is Sennheiser HD-25 II. Best headphones what I have ever used. And I think these are the last cans that I will ever use for DJing.

[Flüxædë]

Make sure you understand the basic structure of any song you start to mix. Just like any other music you have to split the song into sections i.e: Chorus, verse, ext... Usually mixing a chorus or in trance a drop with the intro to another song isn't always a bad idea. You can't necessarily explain a good mix you just have to go out there and get to mixing!!!! :)

Good luck out there!
Flüxædë

[diceallion]

I'm not a pro but I have been in the middle of a big soundsystem with my headphones and my answer to your question is Sennheiser HD-25 II. Best headphones what I have ever used. And I think these are the last cans that I will ever use for DJing.

Alrighty then.

[nconkl1]

Found this amateur video. He's actually pretty good. Definitely a fan of the filter cut, lol. He uses it almost too much (like it's the only method he knows how to introduce songs).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib1hiSsGEXY

Still helpful though.

[diceallion]

Im sorry, but a very boring video to watch.

[nconkl1]

Lol yes but I shared it more just to listen to. I think he did a decent job.


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[LALaw]

To answer your other question, there are many ways to build your set. I like to balance our songs that have vocals with others that don't and mix them pretty evenly. I don't want 20 minutes of nonstop vocals, only to hear nothing but hard trance after that.

The build up and go down is a tried and true method, but it's certainly not the only one. One way I have mixed in the past is to start with a bang, build up, then go down around the 15-18 min mark. Then work the trough, and build back up again with a climax in energy around 38-40 min. Then a slow release, finishing with something like Kaskade to end it.

Try what works for you and get friends to listen to it.

[nconkl1]

Thanks that will really help me.

Side question lol. What's the point or use of a four channel controller? Don't you only need two?


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[diceallion]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/27/pezyzuvy.jpg


$20... Lol just throwing this in while were on the topic.

[nconkl1]

BAM! You dropped the cash for it right? Cuz that's legit lol. Idk what it means by ideal for DJing though lol


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[diceallion]

Lol I'm debating... But the USB key that comes with it with 50 tracks on it..!!! That's like .40 cents a track...

[nconkl1]

Lol I'm debating... But the USB key that comes with it with 50 tracks on it..!!! That's like .40 cents a track...

That's a really good deal!


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[nconkl1]

Why do I see see some DJs turning the jog wheel once the track is already playing? Don't you use the jog wheel when cueing in your headphones to match the beat?


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[Vernski]

That would probably be because they're fine tuning the beatmatching I suppose. Sometimes it needs adjusting while you've got both tracks going....

[nconkl1]

But wouldn't that sound obvious? Or is it subtle enough that it can be done live?


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[Vernski]

Haven't seen what you're talking about exactly, but if they're listening through the pre-cue, no one can hear anything , only the current track. Once they're happy with how it sounds,(by moving the wheel) then they can bring the next track in.

But if it all goes bad while both are playing live, you've go to do something otherwise it's going to sound like crap if you let it stay the same.

[nconkl1]

Haven't seen what you're talking about exactly, but if they're listening through the pre-cue, no one can hear anything , only the current track. Once they're happy with how it sounds,(by moving the wheel) then they can bring the next track in.

But if it all goes bad while both are playing live, you've go to do something otherwise it's going to sound like crap if you let it stay the same.

I'll have to link the video later if I remember :). It's DJ Ravine's Spontaneous EDM Mix if that helps. Idk at what point but he is playing the track and spins the jog wheel too. Unless it's in cue mode. I can't tell lol


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[nconkl1]

How do you mix to a point in a song that isn't on a kick or a beat? Something like vocals or piano or something like that


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[Buszaj]

How do you mix to a point in a song that isn't on a kick or a beat? Something like vocals or piano or something like that


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Practice/experience, and listening to a lot of music. For the majority of tracks, you can still catch the beat on the piano or vocals. There may not be a kick playing to clearly show you the timing, but it is still there.

You can't really explain it, you just know haha. If you listen to the breakdown, imagine where the kick would be if there was one.

[Irrational_Fear]

I'll have to link the video later if I remember :). It's DJ Ravine's Spontaneous EDM Mix if that helps. Idk at what point but he is playing the track and spins the jog wheel too. Unless it's in cue mode. I can't tell lol

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You sometimes nudge the jog wheel on one deck to fine-tune the beat matching or correct any drifting of the tracks (the tracks will often not be matched 100%). This can be done live quite safely as long as you are intelligent where you choose to do it.

In general I would adjust the track that is quietest at that particular moment, but this is not always the case.

For example, if you have two songs playing and one of them is at a strong vocal / instrumental part and the other is just a kick-drum or bass line, I would normally want to nudge the track that has less going on at that moment (the one that is just kick-drum or bass line) as any nudges will be far less perceptible to the audience. Nudging a track that is in the middle of vocals or string/synthy type sounds will be quite obvious to the listener, where-as nudging a track that just has a beat playing will not.

This can sometimes mean that you have to adjusts the track that is playing live rather than the one that you are bringing in, but obviously if you have been nudging the incoming track forwards to adjust then you would nudge the live track backwards.

Key-lock / Master Tempo on CDJs & controllers can help this a lot as it keeps the 'pitch' the same whilst adjusting the tempo. Obviously this is handy if you want to play a song faster (or slower) than normal without affecting the key of the track, but it is also extremely useful when making small adjustments with the jog wheel as it nudges the track forwards or backwards without the perceptible jump in key that normally accompanies such a movement.

Lastly regarding the spinning of the jog wheel- almost all CDJ type jog-wheels have two parts. The top platter, and the rubber bit round the side. Even whilst the jogwheel is in vinyl mode, the side bit still acts as a normal jog-wheel adjust. This means you can use the side of the jog-wheel for all of your adjustments / beat matching, then should you wish to perform a spinback / scratch or whatever, you can do so using the top of the jog-wheel platter without having to swap modes.

For this reason I have only ever left jog-wheels in 'Vinyl' mode on all CDJs I have used, as I simply don't see any need to put them in normal 'pitch-bend' mode. To me the top of the jog-wheel = vinyl mode, side of the jog-wheel = pitch bend / nudge mode. So no need to swap settings.

Hope some of that helps!

As for the video, I did start watching it but I just can't deal with the new sound Ravine is playing these days. He used to be one of my fave DJs on youtube (and indeed along with DJ Cotts was the first channel I subscribed to on there many years ago!), his hardcore mixes were insane and he genuinely comes across as quite a funny guy.

However since he's stopped playing hardcore about a year ago I rarely check out his channel these days. Luckily DJ Cotts is still going strong with the hardcore though! :zany:

[nconkl1]

Those posts are both really helpful guys, thank you.

@Irrational_Fear: I had wondered which mode to leave my decks on! Now I don't have to lol. Vinyl mode it is lol. Granted I don't have my controller yet...but very soon!

As for mixing into songs without a beat playing, I had a feeling the answer would be practice lol. No tips or anything because I'm horrible at counting beats when there isn't one to count with :(

Also, when mixing trance and not cutting to a track directly (where you'd simply count the beats on track 1) and you want to bring in track 2 slowly, what's the best way to do that? You cue to the first beat and then match it and play?

Annnnd how does the Headphones Mix knob work on a controller?

Thanks!


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[Buszaj]

Also, when mixing trance and not cutting to a track directly (where you'd simply count the beats on track 1) and you want to bring in track 2 slowly, what's the best way to do that? You cue to the first beat and then match it and play?

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Can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean?

From what I'm reading, you want a nice long transition? Track 1 is playing. Cue track 2 in your headphones on the first beat of wherever you want to start, beatmatch. Go back to your cued up spot. Start track 2 when you want to. Bring it into the mix when you like. The actual transition will be a combination of faders, EQs, and effects if you like.

Let us know if you're thinking about something else.

[nconkl1]

That's exactly what I meant! Thank you!


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[Irrational_Fear]

Annnnd how does the Headphones Mix knob work on a controller?

Thanks!



I assume it works the same as on any normal mixer. I.e. if you have the knob turned all the way to the left you can only hear the cued up track in your headphones, if you turn it all the way to the right you only hear the live track in your headphones. Stick the knob at 12 o'clock position and you hear a 50/50 split of the two- the mix (as in a close representation of what is coming out of the speakers).

Obviously anywhere in between gives you different variations on this.

I generally have the headphone mix turned almost all the way to the left (Cue) whilst I initially beatmatch, then once I think I'm there I turn it to around the 11 o'clock position which lets me hear both tracks playing together- this lets you check that they are indeed lined up properly, and also lets you pick up on any frequencies that need to be tweaked (i.e. too much mid, or highs clashing etc) before you bring the incoming track over the main speakers.

The headphone mix knob really is a fantastic tool yet something that quite a few mixers don't have. I like the fact that it lets you hear what the two tracks playing together sounds like, largely as it does out of the speakers. And whilst doing this you can adjust the knob to put more emphasis on either track.

Some will also have a cue split button too (or called something similar), that splits the tracks in your headphones so that the incoming track is only playing in your left ear whilst the live track is only playing in your right ear. I've never really used this on my mixer but a good mate of mine swears by it and uses this all the time instead of the headphone mix.

At the end of the day though it comes down to personal preference and what works for you!

[DJ Whrr]

I skimmed through the pages, so I hope I'm not being redundent.

If you want to mix trance well make sure you watch the big boys who do it (Above & Beyond, Tiesto (his older mixes), Armin Van Buuren, Stoneface and Terminal, etc.) This will give you a much better idea on how to make you mixes... feel free to takes bits and pieces from them to form your own style - that's when it gets fun.

Does that help?

[nconkl1]

I skimmed through the pages, so I hope I'm not being redundent.

If you want to mix trance well make sure you watch the big boys who do it (Above & Beyond, Tiesto (his older mixes), Armin Van Buuren, Stoneface and Terminal, etc.) This will give you a much better idea on how to make you mixes... feel free to takes bits and pieces from them to form your own style - that's when it gets fun.

Does that help?

Yes it does, thank you! I've been listening to Armin a lot but can't find older Tiesto mixes. I don't like his new style at all. I miss Adagio and Traffic and that style he had.


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[Vernski]

That's some great posts there (I.Fear). Can't rep you for it, but some very sound knowledge being shared around. :tup:


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[diceallion]

I completely agree, and appreciate your particular post Vernski on headphone cue mixing. Nice.