Where to start with production? (newbie)

[kickassDJ25]

Hey guys and dolls!

Been DJ'ng for a while now and want to have a go at production. I have a sound card, mac book pro, ableton live 8, headphones and studio monitors. Do I need anything else?

How did you guys get started? what sites did u find useful? whats the first thing I need to learn?

any tips/advice is greatly appreciated

K

[drumpusher]

Open ableton and have a fart around. Then read the manual. ;)

[kickassDJ25]

I dare not read a manual, especially this one ha

[drumpusher]

Check out youtube video tutorials for whatever you want to do so, bit by bit I suppose. Getting a bit of basic music theory and a midi keyboard will do no harm. Even if you only learn a few chord progressions you can transpose them to change up your sound to stop it being formulaic. And be prepared to put the work in, with patience. If you get pissed off, move on and start something new.

[de.j.l]

learn to use the interface properly and know how your effects work and how to apply them, read alot.. try alot of new things, realize that your first 15-20+ projects won't be that great but always learn from them.

Give your ears a break from time to time, keep it simple until you' understand the elements and fundamentals of what you are doing.

most importantly, have fun.

[Jason Cerna]

i had a faq for this on the old forums. i will be working on a new faq to point the layman in the correct direction. should be done in a week or so.

read up on synth programming.

here's a freebie:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr99/articles/20tips.htm

the other thing you can do is make a cover one of your favorite songs. this way, you will force yourself to learn how to make certain sounds and loops.

live 8 is a powerful program once you get used to workflow. i've been using the series since live lite 4, when i got my first midi keyboard.

[thehadgi]

i had a faq for this on the old forums. i will be working on a new faq to point the layman in the correct direction. should be done in a week or so.


That faq was awesome. I owe a lot of what I know and my progress to it, along with other DJF posts :D


the other thing you can do is make a cover one of your favorite songs. this way, you will force yourself to learn how to make certain sounds and loops.


Probably the best way to learn. Helped me tons. If you're learning to play piano, you don't play your own music at first; you play other people's compositions. Kind of the same idea

As far as equipment, you got everything you need for now:-) Then find one, I repeat, ONE, synth you like (could be Sylenth1 or whatever anyone else suggests) and learn how to program it. Learn to use what you already have first, then branch out when you find you need something else to give you a certain sound. If you check out my soundcloud in my sig, everything one there has only been made with a computer, ableton 8, and headphones. (Also sylenth1, arturia minimoog, and some kontakt instruments)

[kickassDJ25]

thanks lads, appreciate it.

what is the most/best synth out there on the market?

what do u guys make of Sonic Academy? worth investing?

[Andrew B]

what is the most/best synth out there on the market?

Hardware synth or plug-in?

Regardless, there is no "best." It all comes down to preference. And it depends on what you can spend.

[kickassDJ25]

slyneth is a plug-in yeah?

sorry but I'm a total newbie.

[Giran]

There is no "best" synth out there. Although there are some VERY good ones that professionals prefer, such as Native Instruments Massive, Spectrasonics Trillian or Sylenth1 by Lennar Digital.

Also production depends on how fast/willing you are prepared to learn. Some bits of production are far easier to learn than others, I love building solid drums but really dislike sound design. If you really want to start production seriously, then perhaps do invest a little in some courses by Sonic Academy/Dubspot. However, I've found alot of these schools concentrate on the basics rather than more of the advanced stuff (which makes sense for beginners), but don't expect to be making the sounds of your favourite artists within a month. It's a long process that's always evolving and requires attention.

[kickassDJ25]

Hi Giran

thanks for the info.

I want to take it seriously, I'm willing to put the time in. I was looking at Sonic Academy, 55 dollars every 3 months I think, not bad, even just to get the basics you know.

I'm gonna mess around with ableton for now, but I honestly don't even know where to start with it.

I read on the net, Its best to start with some loops?

[Andrew B]

Start with the built-in tutorials. :tup:

[Skeyelab]

I dare not read a manual, especially this one ha



why not? are you afraid to progress?

[Giran]

No problem mate.

That sounds like a plan indeed. Make sure you learn + pay attention when it comes to Equalization and Compression, as they are the standard tools for any producer. It really depends on what genre you want to produce, but I think the best starting point is the drums. It's a solid foundation for any good track, and having professional sounding drums are a big indication of a good production.

There are tonnes of tutorial videos on youtube, but definitely grab a book on mixing from Amazon/etc.
http://www.dnbscene.com/article/88-thinking-inside-the-box-a-complete-eq-tutorial is a good starting point as well.

Using loops are a hot topic amongst producers. I'm not going to share the "hipster" viewpoint but there are pro's and con's to using loops.
They are easy to use; just drag and drop the required loop which fits the track. It's also helpful when learning a new genre and a whole different type of drum programming is required. By dropping a loop, you can identify where the kick/snare/hats fall and give groove to the track.

Generally, loops are unprocessed drum hits sequenced together and are finalized renders. This means you cannot edit them in any way unless you slice them and load them into a sampler. Ableton is great for doing this as you can slice to track, but it's not always 100% correct. Sometimes you can have a loop that has one element out of place, and even slicing + EQ'ing cannot do much without stripping the core groove. This is where loops fail massively.

Every single person who produces EDM professionally swears by Vengeance and Loopmasters sample packs. They are fantastic, clean sounds but because they are so well known, any loop you use from theirs would be recognized easily. This is where the "hipster" viewpoint kicks in.

Don't worry about that though, if it sounds good to you, then it probably is! At the end of the day, it's not always the route taken, but actually getting to your destination is what counts! :tup:

[kickassDJ25]

I shall give that link a read tomorrow.

can loops just be dragged and dropped into the arrangement window? not really making music is it?

I'll take your info on board about Equalization and Compression, but what makes them so important?

[thehadgi]

I think at your stage, it would do you well to read 2 books (or any others..) that I read when I was starting out:

http://www.amazon.com/Ableton-Live-Power-Comprehensive-Guide/dp/1598639757

This one will explain the program, what everything does, and how to commonly use the program the program to do certain things.

http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Post-Production-Your-Project-Studio/dp/1598634194/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328573225&sr=1-4

This one will explain the idea behind eq, compression, reverb, all those other musical things that you're wondering about. If you kinda go through each book at the same time, here and there, you'll start to make sense of music production as a whole. Then the only thing left is to keep making things. Start with simple sounds, drum hits whatever. Then go into loops. Then make a short phrase, like intro-verse-chorus. Then a full song.

Baby steps :tup:

[Giran]

I shall give that link a read tomorrow.

can loops just be dragged and dropped into the arrangement window? not really making music is it?

I'll take your info on board about Equalization and Compression, but what makes them so important?

// Easier to quote + reply.

Yup they can and yes, that's precisely what certain elitist producers say.
You could argue that a chef doesn't always cook from scratch. It's not like he grew an animal, fed, killed, cleaned and then cooked it for you.

Equalization and Compression are very important in production and mixing because they sculpt and mould the sound you want.
Equalization (basically) works by cutting or boosting specific frequencies of an incoming signal (a loop for instance). Generally it's alot better to cut the muddy ranges (below 120-200hz) than to boost the bright ranges (2khz+). Most pro's abide by this rule and so do I.

Compression is generally used to control the output level of an incoming signal. Sometimes a vocal/drum track has a loud and unexpected point in the signal and you wish to "lower" the volume precisely when that point occurs. This is what compression does. You can use compressors for tightning drums (parallel compression), de-essing (vocal control), and side-chaining (making the bassline pump/duck when the kick hits).

If you can master these two techniques, then you are kinda halfway to becoming a good producer.

[ilya]

If you can master these two techniques, then you are kinda halfway to becoming a good producer.

not trying to pick on anyone but seriously, ignore this quote entirely. put down the books and tutorials. stop watching youtube videos on compression techniques. delete those loops you downloaded.

grab some free drum samples online, download synth1 (http://www.geocities.jp/daichi1969/softsynth/), depending on which version of live you have there's also pretty good chance you got some virtual instruments and a sampler/simpler already.

now open live, go through the built-in tutorials to get a better understanding of the basics - audio vs. midi tracks, programming into live's piano roll, arrangement vs. session view, etc. pull up a simple piano sound, some of those drum samples, and write in whatever comes to your head - be messy, don't worry about 'mistakes'... that your sonics might not sound anything like your influences, that your music isn't as catchy as your favorites, that your track only ends up being 2 minutes long when you're trying to write house. in fact, stop trying to do anything for now, forget allllll that shit and just mess around! make sounds and little musical patterns, program your own crazy left-field drum loops. drop in a random effect with a fun sounding name on one of your channels, something like 'ping-pong' or 'crusher' and tweak randomly to taste.

if you're genuinely having fun this process itself, regardless of whatever the end product sounds like, consider picking up some of the books suggested above/watching online tutorials about specific techniques that you find yourself wanting to better understand, etc. more importantly though: listen CLOSELY to a lot of the music you enjoy -really thinking about the elements of it that you like (listen to some music you don't typically listen to too) and only produce if/when you feel inspired, have something to say or just feel like doing something you love.

[ilya]

2 more things:
monitor at low volume levels, preserves your hearing; if something sounds good when it's played quietly, there's a much greater chance it'll sound good when loud too. the inverse isn't always true.
take regular breaks! you might get a completely different perspective on something the next morning... get out of the house, stay in and read a book, get drunk, go to a park, get laid, or whatever - just get inspired.

[Giran]

not trying to pick on anyone but seriously, ignore this quote entirely. put down the books and tutorials. stop watching youtube videos on compression techniques. delete those loops you downloaded.

grab some free drum samples online, download synth1 (http://www.geocities.jp/daichi1969/softsynth/), depending on which version of live you have there's also pretty good chance you got some virtual instruments and a sampler/simpler already.

now open live, go through the built-in tutorials to get a better understanding of the basics - audio vs. midi tracks, programming into live's piano roll, arrangement vs. session view, etc. pull up a simple piano sound, some of those drum samples, and write in whatever comes to your head - be messy, don't worry about 'mistakes'... that your sonics might not sound anything like your influences, that your music isn't as catchy as your favorites, that your track only ends up being 2 minutes long when you're trying to write house. in fact, stop trying to do anything for now, forget allllll that shit and just mess around! make sounds and little musical patterns, program your own crazy left-field drum loops. drop in a random effect with a fun sounding name on one of your channels, something like 'ping-pong' or 'crusher' and tweak randomly to taste.

if you're genuinely having fun this process itself, regardless of whatever the end product sounds like, consider picking up some of the books suggested above/watching online tutorials about specific techniques that you find yourself wanting to better understand, etc. more importantly though: listen CLOSELY to a lot of the music you enjoy -really thinking about the elements of it that you like (listen to some music you don't typically listen to too) and only produce if/when you feel inspired, have something to say or just feel like doing something you love.

Perhaps my sentence may have been a bit general, but to completely disregard basic production techniques such as eq'ing and compression is no way to start off as a producer. Yes I agree with writing/messing with whatever sounds good to you, but producing music is not just an art, it is also a science. I didn't say that learning production techniques would make him a good producer, I merely stated that it's a good path of becoming one.

Writing and sequencing ideas may be fun, but at the end of the day it all comes down to implementing those ideas in a track. You could have that amazing sounding lead/melody/chord section but it would sound like utter shit in the master if the track isn't mixed properly.

I'm not attacking your creativity here, not at all. I'm just saying that it's important to grasp the fundamentals first before worrying what style you will master.

Think about skydiving for example, it's an adrenaline rush which seems to be exciting! However, you'd never just hop into a plane with a parachute and then jump. There are so many things to learn first before actually going up there, many important things that if you forget, you are potentially putting your life in danger. It's a farfetched idea, but you get the jist of it.


2 more things:
monitor at low volume levels, preserves your hearing; if something sounds good when it's played quietly, there's a much greater chance it'll sound good when loud too. the inverse isn't always true.
take regular breaks! you might get a completely different perspective on something the next morning... get out of the house, stay in and read a book, get drunk, go to a park, get laid, or whatever - just get inspired.

Agreed. :tup:

[mostapha]

to completely disregard basic production techniques such as eq'ing and compression is no way to start off as a producer.

I disagree entirely. You can learn that as you go and/or pay someone to do it for you. If you're finding sounds you like and creating something wonderful, you can figure out the technicalities later.

I wish it were the way you think it is, because I'm way better at the technical side than the artistic side, but it's just not. I'd happily forget everything I know about compression and EQing to learn how to write a good melody at a whim. You can pay a recording studio to record things for you (which includes compression and EQ and all that other crap), you can't pay them to write your melodies.

[Giran]

I disagree entirely. You can learn that as you go and/or pay someone to do it for you. If you're finding sounds you like and creating something wonderful, you can figure out the technicalities later.

I wish it were the way you think it is, because I'm way better at the technical side than the artistic side, but it's just not. I'd happily forget everything I know about compression and EQing to learn how to write a good melody at a whim. You can pay a recording studio to record things for you (which includes compression and EQ and all that other crap), you can't pay them to write your melodies.

Maybe it's me then. When I first started out I had all these lovely ideas, but everytime I tried to put a track together, it sounded like rubbish. It's only in the last year that my productions really shaped up, and alot of it was just stemming down to the basics. I wish I had learnt the basics properly at the start, then having to play catchup later on.

In all fairness, I've never had the money/luxury to let someone else mixdown my songs. Especially since in the world of EDM, producers (besides the really big ones) do everything themselves. From composition, programming, mixdown and sometimes even mastering. With other genre's of music, producers generally stick to writing the musical ideas then get engineers to mixdown and master the track, which I agree with your last sentence.

[Shaan]

delete

[ilya]

Perhaps my sentence may have been a bit general, but to completely disregard basic production techniques such as eq'ing and compression is no way to start off as a producer. Yes I agree with writing/messing with whatever sounds good to you, but producing music is not just an art, it is also a science. I didn't say that learning production techniques would make him a good producer, I merely stated that it's a good path of becoming one.

Writing and sequencing ideas may be fun, but at the end of the day it all comes down to implementing those ideas in a track. You could have that amazing sounding lead/melody/chord section but it would sound like utter shit in the master if the track isn't mixed properly.

I'm not attacking your creativity here, not at all. I'm just saying that it's important to grasp the fundamentals first before worrying what style you will master.

Think about skydiving for example, it's an adrenaline rush which seems to be exciting! However, you'd never just hop into a plane with a parachute and then jump. There are so many things to learn first before actually going up there, many important things that if you forget, you are potentially putting your life in danger. It's a farfetched idea, but you get the jist of it.


i get what you're saying - no question that learning mix techniques, sound design, etc. is ultimately important if you're hoping to achieve a certain level of 'quality' relative to whatever the standard in contemporary, professional recordings happens to be at the time. my point is that these things should come after someone gets a basic grip on writing/composition/arrangement.

a lot of people say they wanna start producing and i'm sure they're being genuine in doing so. however, i'm sure in a huge percentage of cases the person ultimately realizes that the process itself isn't really fun or inspiring for them. until someone comes to the realization that yes, producing is something they actually want to follow through with, it's pretty pointless to get bogged down with anything other than the fundamentals.

i think it makes a lot more sense to learn about compression, EQ, reverb as the need arises - and that need is mostly definitely NOT there when you're first starting off; creating a high quality/professionally sounding work should not be the immediate goal, discovering whether production is right for you to begin with should come first. again, that's why i suggest that the op not bother with loops for example - they may provide some great instant gratification but they'll also be pretty damaging if someone isn't even sure they like making music to begin with. that's also why i suggested actively listening and analysing music. if i start realizing that my tracks lack a certain cohesion compared to something i like, i'll have a better understanding of why i'm reading up on reverb or compression to begin with. techniques are always easier to pick up in context.

i'm not trying to say that it's all for the sake of creativity (although hopefully it will be to some extent), i'm saying that pursuing an art without first coming to the understanding that it's something you truly like is pointless. it's also probably one of the main reasons there's so much uninspired art out there.

[Giran]

i get what you're saying - no question that learning mix techniques, sound design, etc. is ultimately important if you're hoping to achieve a certain level of 'quality' relative to whatever the standard in contemporary, professional recordings happens to be at the time. my point is that these things should come after someone gets a basic grip on writing/composition/arrangement.

a lot of people say they wanna start producing and i'm sure they're being genuine in doing so. however, i'm sure in a huge percentage of cases the person ultimately realizes that the process itself isn't really fun or inspiring for them. until someone comes to the realization that yes, producing is something they actually want to follow through with, it's pretty pointless to get bogged down with anything other than the fundamentals.

i think it makes a lot more sense to learn about compression, EQ, reverb as the need arises - and that need is mostly definitely NOT there when you're first starting off; creating a high quality/professionally sounding work should not be the immediate goal, discovering whether production is right for you to begin with should come first. again, that's why i suggest that the op not bother with loops for example - they may provide some great instant gratification but they'll also be pretty damaging if someone isn't even sure they like making music to begin with. that's also why i suggested actively listening and analysing music. if i start realizing that my tracks lack a certain cohesion compared to something i like, i'll have a better understanding of why i'm reading up on reverb or compression to begin with. techniques are always easier to pick up in context.

i'm not trying to say that it's all for the sake of creativity (although hopefully it will be to some extent), i'm saying that pursuing an art without first coming to the understanding that it's something you truly like is pointless. it's also probably one of the main reasons there's so much uninspired art out there.

Oh yeah definitely man. As I said earlier, I really wish I grasped the basics properly when starting out, rather than having to learn it later. :)
As Shaan said, nothing is really black and white. If you feel that learning a mixture of these things are best for you, then keep it up! :)

[login]

1.- Music comes first, if you dont have much music knowledge take piano classes and then music theory classes.

2.- Fx comes last, concentrate on making music, once you are there you can focus on making it sound good.

3.- Have fun

[mostapha]

Learning a mixture might work best, but I think that the musical/artistic side is more important. Maybe that's just because I'm worse at it.

I'm way better at mixing than I am at writing a melody, and I kind of hate it. Things like parallel compression, which effects should be inserts and which should be sends, complex routing, recording (in an EDM context, less so in the context of bands, but I'm still not a complete idiot) … they all make a lot more sense to me than figuring out which note to play next. I might just be discounting that knowledge because I know it so well for someone so relatively new to the game, but I wish I'd spent that time learning to improv on piano rather than learning to mix.

Sound design (meaning building synth patches, layering samples, etc.) is something that's pretty necessary unless you're happy working with stock sounds……definitely learn that. And learn basics for sure…things like "don't clip" and the basic way a DAW works…but in terms of in-depth editing, automation, weird routing, etc..

If you're the kinda guy who doesn't know what signal flow is or how compressors work (in a very general sense), it might be worth finding a course to take, but it's all pointless if you can't write a song.

[Ignotus]

None of what has been said needs to be so black and white. It will take you years of writing and practicing every day to get to a professional level. Just learn everything you can, because in the end you're gonna need to know everything from how to mix your drums and bassline so they don't clash, to how to write chord progressions and melodies. Whether you decide to practice music theory or audio engineering first makes no difference, you are going to sound terrible for a couple years anyway until it all starts to click and you get better, it's that simple.

"its that simple"... if only it was man.... going on 8 months, and ive made a ton of progress, but at the same time, i completely agree, ppl are being way to harsh... whats that corny saying "we didnt fly to the moon in a day"?... either way, your trying to progress at a race car level, when you only know the science of producing of a kindergartener...

youtube vids help, read the manual, READ MAN!!! READ!!!! and most of all trial and error, and if its not fun, your not doing it right man

[kickassDJ25]

what do u guys think of Sonic Academy? they have some basic videos to get a newbie going

[mostapha]

Never used them. I read.

[Dremo]

what do u guys think of Sonic Academy? they have some basic videos to get a newbie going

I subscribe to SA. They pointed me in a good direction when I first started producing. These days I spend more time reading and figuring things out myself, than watching their tutorials.

[login]

I would pick books over videos any day: The dance music manual, secrets of house music production, some book son synthesis and some on music theory.

[daveoj]

This. The Dance Music Manual was excellent helping me get my head around some sound design concepts.


I would pick books over videos any day: The dance music manual, secrets of house music production, some book son synthesis and some on music theory.

[punky]

Think about skydiving for example, it's an adrenaline rush which seems to be exciting! However, you'd never just hop into a plane with a parachute and then jump. There are so many things to learn first before actually going up there, many important things that if you forget, you are potentially putting your life in danger. It's a farfetched idea, but you get the jist of it.


To be fair, no one ever fell to their death learning how to use Ableton.

[thehadgi]

^^ :lol:

[Giran]

To be fair, no one ever fell to their death learning how to use Ableton.

I did say it was a farfetched idea! :P

[mostapha]

To be fair, no one ever fell to their death learning how to use Ableton.

I almost did. There was a midget involved. It was a really weird night.

One thing's for sure…I'll never look at a potato the same way again.