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DJAkash
02-26-2012, 06:36 PM
So just to get the figuring out done so i dont do it days before gigs.
I'm looking to upgrade my system for the coming year, or perhaps if I book huge events after the summer.
soon it will be a (1)JBL PRX618S-XLF (2)RCF 312a, lets say that this setup is great for 400 people in the events i do primarily(wedding, anniversaries)
I am planning to stick with RCF tops because the quality and sound just won me over. adding a pair of 312a's or 322a's (I don't know the difference) would accomplish how much increase?
would I have to move up to a pair of the 412a or 422a(once again don't get the difference) to reach the 600 people wedding mark or maybe more?
unless there is a more efficient route RCF has?

windspeed36
02-26-2012, 07:05 PM
when you start looking at 600+ you need to consider is it worth buying a system that can handle that many, or is it cheaper to get a good relationship going with the local rental company. Thats your choice - i'd go with renting personally however. if you want to stick with RCF i'd take a look at their TT series. The TTL11A - may not look like the conventional system however according to those who have used it on this forum, its easily works with 1000 people in combination with the TTS26 dual 15" subwoofer. Also i think it was "BriansRedd" on youtube mentioned the 722A's in combination with RCF subwoofers worked for around 500 people. I'll try and find that video for you. EDIT: found it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEZ0g_2vMHc&list=UU7AlDfYGk0PkFLZYnOJ_dFg&index=11&feature=plcp)

The difference between the 412 and 422 is that the 412 only has a 1" HF driver and get's down to 50Hz(-3dB) and hits 127dB whereas the 422 has a 2" HF driver, hitting a total of 128dB and 48Hz(-3dB).

Overall i'd just go with renting for the bigger gigs. Remembering with bigger gigs, not only do you need more sound, but more lighting too.

And here's that info about the RCF TTL11A - http://soundforums.net/product-reviews/2586-auditioning-rcf-ttl11a-tts26a.html

Incognito
02-26-2012, 07:24 PM
For 600 you would definitely want to think about upgrading more then just tops in your situation. For the type of gigs you do I still say the system I suggested earlier would cover the 600 mark, a pair of the XLF clustered & four 312a (a pair as FOH & a delay pair mid way down the venues' coverage area). This will not give you club levels but it will give you even coverage without having to resort to ear bleeding SPL in one part of the venue just to get coverage in another. My suggestion for the 412a is based on the fact you already have a pair so a matching set will keep that professional look & also their not bad tops.

Incognito
02-26-2012, 07:39 PM
To give you an idea I did a gig about a year & a half ago when I still owned four QSC HPR 122i tops, I did the FOH / remote delay configuration in conjunction with four JTR Growlers in a 50' x 75' venue at club levels with the venue having standing room only. While I didn't have any headroom left on my tops they however did pull off the gig just fine without any issues with even & high SPL coverage though out the entire venue while maintaining great SQ. I mentioned this to show how well the configuration can work rather then just having one pair of FOH blasting trying to cover a large area.

DJAkash
02-26-2012, 08:04 PM
a pair of 312a's and another xlf would match and look nice together, and I guess the 600 mark is good, I could simply use different speaker pointing technique during speeches, and switch to a more dance floor friendly technique when open dance begins(I will wait until I actually get a gig that big 400is my max right now). I actually do have a sound guy, he charges 300 for full service, brings the full pioneer cdjs/mixers.... setup with the huge truss with the mix of all the lights a gig needs, and also speaker arrays in the 20k+wattage range. for 300$ seems good for me.

windspeed36
02-26-2012, 08:09 PM
setup with the huge truss with the mix of all the lights a gig needs, and also speaker arrays in the 20k+wattage range. for 300$ seems good for me. 20,000w continuos for 400-600 people? um...

windspeed36
02-26-2012, 08:16 PM
my festival FOH is just under 22,000w continuos and its good for about 6-8000 people...

DJAkash
02-26-2012, 08:16 PM
LOL yeah one time the power in the hotel shut off, thank god I was not the DJ that night.

he brought out about 10 tops and 10 subs last time I used him on a gig 700 or 800 people gig
and honestly if you can stand in front of the subs without feeling like vomiting, you are strong.

DJAkash
02-26-2012, 08:17 PM
to be fair it was dumb of him to bring that, the dancefloor was extremely wide and long, about half the venue was dancefloor.

windspeed36
02-26-2012, 08:20 PM
do you know what speakers he brought along/he uses?

ampnation
02-26-2012, 10:30 PM
Whatever the speakers were, for all that I think $300 is a KILLER deal. I bet it has a lot to do with the economy in Detroit right now.

windspeed36
02-26-2012, 10:36 PM
If his equipment is any good, and you and your client are happy with it - i'd just hire from him for bigger events

DJAkash
02-26-2012, 10:43 PM
well actually now that I think of it it's awesome. He sets it up and everything. I walk in with my laptop, put it on the stand, plug in the power and usb connections. and begin. LOL
as for brand I forget, but they are all like blocks I just know the amps are all crown

Incognito
02-27-2012, 05:46 AM
If his equipment is any good, and you and your client are happy with it - i'd just hire from him for bigger events

But after around six rentals he would of paid enough to of bought his own equipment & then he could be the guy charging $300 to rent out his gear for events between his own bookings for gigs thus making his new gear pay for itself.

windspeed36
02-27-2012, 05:52 AM
But after around six rentals he would of paid enough to of bought his own equipment & then he could be the guy charging $300 to rent out his gear for events between his own bookings for gigs thus making his new gear pay for itself.
Depends how often he rents the system - if he does it weekly or monthly then yes he should buy his own, however if he's doing it once or twice then probably not

Incognito
02-27-2012, 06:07 AM
Depends how often he rents the system - if he does it weekly or monthly then yes he should buy his own, however if he's doing it once or twice then probably not

Even if he only does them three times a year that would mean in two years he would of still spent that amount & would be stuck still spending that amount. Where as if he bought his own he isn't at the mercy of some other guy to do his part since remember if he is booked for the wedding & the other guy doesn't show up it's him who has to answer for the other guys actions. Either way renting would be a short term solution since it would mean him constantly paying out part of his potential profits to someone else but in the long term it would be better to own since not only would he be saving that extra $300 per gig but could also rent out his gear thus earning an extra $300 per gig that he otherwise wouldn't be able to earn.

ampnation
02-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I actually do have a sound guy, he charges 300 for full service, brings the full pioneer cdjs/mixers.... setup with the huge truss with the mix of all the lights a gig needs, and also speaker arrays in the 20k+wattage range. for 300$ seems good for me.


He sets it up and everything. I walk in with my laptop, put it on the stand, plug in the power and usb connections. and begin. LOL
as for brand I forget, but they are all like blocks I just know the amps are all crown


But after around six rentals he would of paid enough to of bought his own equipment & then he could be the guy charging $300 to rent out his gear for events between his own bookings for gigs thus making his new gear pay for itself.

To reach the same level of service as he's receiving, he would still have to hire someone to set it up so all he has to do is, "walk in with my laptop, put it on the stand, plug in the power and usb connections. and begin." And unless he let someone else handle renting his equipment out, he would have to spend his time on that task. And then there's the issue of what equipment he is using. Typical rental rates are 10% of purchase price. I strongly suspect from what he's said so far the equipment in question is worth way more than $3000.

Consider a typical powered system of a pair of RCF ART312A $750, a typical sub, let's say $1200, mid-level Pioneer CDJ350's and the matching DJM350 mixer $2000. We're already at almost $4000 and we haven't even bought stands or cables. Adding a 2nd sub and/or upgrading the tops would run even more. An equally quality passive system isn't gonna be any cheaper, probably more. Haven't even discussed lighting and trusses.

My guess is, the setup is worth at least $10k. And to rent it out to others, he has to compete with the guy he just fired meaning he can probably only get $300 assuming he comes along to provide the labor instead of DJ'ing.

The last time I rented gear, it was 4 passive Yamaha club stage monitors (I used my amps) for $225 total and nobody came along to do any setup. I say if the OP is clearing at least what he's paying to rent the gear which includes setup and teardown labor, I'd have to think real hard before jumping into buying my own.

Evolved
02-27-2012, 02:50 PM
Welcome to the world of great natural sounding tops. You now have the RCF bug. Currently im in the market for a sub and plan to grab up the 705A. Gigs I will do will be 300 mainly. I am also using 312A's and I still haven't pushed them to their limits yet. Only about half way and they were loud and didn't distort. I constantly check for a limit light and thus far have never seen it come on. I am sure I'll make it light up just haven't gotten there yet.

Incognito
02-27-2012, 04:35 PM
To reach the same level of service as he's receiving, he would still have to hire someone to set it up so all he has to do is, "walk in with my laptop, put it on the stand, plug in the power and usb connections. and begin." And unless he let someone else handle renting his equipment out, he would have to spend his time on that task. And then there's the issue of what equipment he is using. Typical rental rates are 10% of purchase price. I strongly suspect from what he's said so far the equipment in question is worth way more than $3000.

Consider a typical powered system of a pair of RCF ART312A $750, a typical sub, let's say $1200, mid-level Pioneer CDJ350's and the matching DJM350 mixer $2000. We're already at almost $4000 and we haven't even bought stands or cables. Adding a 2nd sub and/or upgrading the tops would run even more. An equally quality passive system isn't gonna be any cheaper, probably more. Haven't even discussed lighting and trusses.

My guess is, the setup is worth at least $10k. And to rent it out to others, he has to compete with the guy he just fired meaning he can probably only get $300 assuming he comes along to provide the labor instead of DJ'ing.

The last time I rented gear, it was 4 passive Yamaha club stage monitors (I used my amps) for $225 total and nobody came along to do any setup. I say if the OP is clearing at least what he's paying to rent the gear which includes setup and teardown labor, I'd have to think real hard before jumping into buying my own.

We're talking plug & play active speakers here, not rocket science.

ampnation
02-27-2012, 04:40 PM
We're talking plug & play active speakers here, not rocket science.

That's not what he's getting now. He mentioned a rack of crown amps. The powered illustration probably doesn't have the power he's become used to. Hard to say if that 20kw system is great or not so I'm just guessing.

Incognito
02-27-2012, 05:00 PM
That's not what he's getting now. He mentioned a rack of crown amps. The powered illustration probably doesn't have the power he's become used to. Hard to say if that 20kw system is great or not so I'm just guessing.

What he's getting is well over kill for weddings & he's not using a fraction of that potential (come on 20K for a wedding of only 600 or less?).

DJAkash
02-27-2012, 05:12 PM
I bought the JBL-XLF today, kills the QSC kw181. The JBL didn't fit in my 2010 mazda 6. Getting a van to pick it up

ampnation
02-27-2012, 05:45 PM
I bought the JBL-XLF today, kills the QSC kw181. The JBL didn't fit in my 2010 mazda 6. Getting a van to pick it up
Did a side by side with the XLF and KW? Tell us more. I've only been able to A/B the KW vs. the PRX618S... not the XLF. The KW killed in that comparison.

DJAkash
02-27-2012, 06:09 PM
Yes I did side by side by side, the jbl prx618sxlf the jbl prx618(not xlf) and the kw181 maxed out all the subs when the mixer was on 0 volume, pumped it up to 30% 50% and 80%. at all volumes. the regular non xlf jbl was destroyed so noticebly by the QSC I ruled it out so easily. Now the JBL prx618xlf had a larger variety of bass noises the QSC could not, and it was noticeably shaking my heart from 10 feet away and took some xlr wires off the wall, the QSC did shake me but i would ball park figure 30% less power in the QSC's heart shake or so. assuming you have a van and can carry 80 lbs(I bicep curl more than that, workout everyday) The Jbl prx618xlf is a no brainer.