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View Full Version : How to precisely drop a beat without sync?



deathsupport
03-22-2013, 12:58 AM
I've been bedroom DJ'ing for a while now with my Hercules RMX and Traktor Pro, and I'm familiar with the sync vs no sync debate. This isn't about that. For the record I've had a go at beatmatching more than once and didn't find it to be that difficult, and I'm sure if I sit down and spend a few more sessions I'll get the hang of it.
My question concerns dropping a beat. For example, Track A has a build up and at the drop I want to play the highs and mids of Track B. Up to now I've been relying on the sync button after I hit play to beatmatch the two songs, specifically to ensure that they are in phase. How can I avoid using the sync button for this scenario?
I've thought of starting Track B with no volume earlier on, beatmatching by ear, and then throwing the volume fader up at the drop. This doesn't appeal to me because I can easily under/overshoot the position of the volume fader. Instead, I can use the xfader but the same concern applies, just a little less so. Also, starting a track earlier means I have to set all my cue points X number of beats before the actual drop. This doesn't appeal to me either because, for logical purposes, I'd like my cue points to be set at a drop.

Can anyone give any insight as to how they do this without hitting sync?

xs2man
03-22-2013, 01:34 AM
Practice.

Pri yon Joni
03-22-2013, 04:54 AM
^^^^^ agreed

DJNR
03-22-2013, 05:15 AM
If you have quantize on it should work.

Sigma
03-22-2013, 08:23 AM
Regarding the under/overshoot of the volume with the line fader, make sure your gains are properly set and then you can just whack the line fader to the top. Check the pinned Gains 101 thread if you don't know how to use the gains properly: -

http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?18479-Gains-101-What-they-re-for-and-how-to-use-them

I tend not to drop a track in before the actual in point (the point where the mix goes live out of the speakers), but you can do that. It takes some of the risk out of it, because when you drop a track in at the exact point you have to get it right, while if you drop it in early with the line fader down, you have some time to quickly nudge it into line if you dropped it in just slightly out.

The technique I use a lot with turntables - and I don't know if this will translate over to your gear, but I'll mention it anyway - is "baby scratch cueing". So I would cue up the track at the point where I want to drop it in. The gains and beatmatching have already been sorted. Then I baby scratch it back and forth in my headphones in time with the track that's playing, before opening the fader and dropping it into the live mix at the same time. So nobody actually hears the baby scratching cos it's just done in my headphones. While I can just drop tracks in while holding the record still and doing it, I find that the baby scratch cueing technique helps with two things - timing, because the motion you're doing is in time with the beat, and in the case of vinyl mixing it means that the record has forward momentum when you let it go, which prevents any slurring that can send the tracks out of time.

aaron altar
03-22-2013, 08:42 AM
The technique I use a lot with turntables - and I don't know if this will translate over to your gear, but I'll mention it anyway - is "baby scratch cueing". So I would cue up the track at the point where I want to drop it in. The gains and beatmatching have already been sorted. Then I baby scratch it back and forth in my headphones in time with the track that's playing, before opening the fader and dropping it into the live mix at the same time. So nobody actually hears the baby scratching cos it's just done in my headphones. While I can just drop tracks in while holding the record still and doing it, I find that the baby scratch cueing technique helps with two things - timing, because the motion you're doing is in time with the beat, and in the case of vinyl mixing it means that the record has forward momentum when you let it go, which prevents any slurring that can send the tracks out of time.

^^^That's how I do it with vinyl. With my controller I tap in time next to the play button until I get the beat I want to start on and then tap the play button. It's like button mashing with cdjs. It takes practice but you get better at it in time. I tried baby scratching with the controller but it didn't react the same for me on my set up.

Sigma
03-22-2013, 08:44 AM
Yeah, the way you do it with a controller is how I would do it too. I would only use the technique I mentioned if the particular controller I was using accurately mimicked how a turntable worked, but like you say, some don't react in the same way. That's one advantage of vinyl really, because you are interacting directly with the medium itself and you never get any latency or digital artefacts, but obviously digital has advantages of its own too.

Baller95
03-22-2013, 09:22 AM
Yeah, the way you do it with a controller is how I would do it too. I would only use the technique I mentioned if the particular controller I was using accurately mimicked how a turntable worked, but like you say, some don't react in the same way. That's one advantage of vinyl really, because you are interacting directly with the medium itself and you never get any latency or digital artefacts, but obviously digital has advantages of its own too.

Yeah that's what sucks about controllers, I guess it'll be pretty tough to replicate TT's without having a fair sized (12" is ideal) motorized jog wheel.

Stigna
03-22-2013, 09:31 AM
sounds like you are confusing beatmatching with dropping the track.. unless i'm confused as to what those controllers are capable of..

you have to match the speed of each track - either by ear, DVS, or sync.

Then you must drop the track on beat at an appropriate time

deathsupport
03-22-2013, 10:27 AM
If you have quantize on it should work.

Someone showed this feature to me... I was pretty amazed, it does exactly what I want. I turned it on in my Traktor but it didn't change anything at all, strangely enough. Maybe it's my install, maybe it's time to upgrade to 2.5.

deathsupport
03-22-2013, 10:38 AM
Regarding the under/overshoot of the volume with the line fader, make sure your gains are properly set and then you can just whack the line fader to the top. Check the pinned Gains 101 thread if you don't know how to use the gains properly: -

http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?18479-Gains-101-What-they-re-for-and-how-to-use-them

Thanks for the link... I've been keeping my faders at '8' for no tangible reason, and increasing the gain of my recording instead. I'll change this habit.

Stigna
03-22-2013, 10:55 PM
Thanks for the link... I've been keeping my faders at '8' for no tangible reason, and increasing the gain of my recording instead. I'll change this habit.

haha.. i used to keep mine at 8 also.. for probably the same non tangible reason.

DJ Nada
03-22-2013, 11:14 PM
To slam in a new song using a controller, set the bpm to match, then hit your cue and slap the crossfader over at the same time. With practice, you'll get it.

sss18734
03-22-2013, 11:46 PM
Poor quality buttons on low-end controllers are more difficult to drop precisely, but still do-able after some practice.

If you are really having trouble, try dropping your tracks using the "cup" method instead. That is, dedicate a button that will only play the track once it's released. This cuts the pushing-in motion out entirely, which technically gives you a more accurate drop.

But no, really... Just practice.

Andrew B
03-23-2013, 12:23 AM
Use the jog wheels, not buttons. You don't need cuepoints or anything. And like Sigma suggested, faders to the top.

KLH
03-23-2013, 05:00 AM
practice.
+1

Timing always takes practice.

-KLH

Dubphyte
03-24-2013, 07:05 AM
I've been bedroom DJ'ing for a while now with my Hercules RMX and Traktor Pro, and I'm familiar with the sync vs no sync debate. This isn't about that. For the record I've had a go at beatmatching more than once and didn't find it to be that difficult, and I'm sure if I sit down and spend a few more sessions I'll get the hang of it.
My question concerns dropping a beat. For example, Track A has a build up and at the drop I want to play the highs and mids of Track B. Up to now I've been relying on the sync button after I hit play to beatmatch the two songs, specifically to ensure that they are in phase. How can I avoid using the sync button for this scenario?
I've thought of starting Track B with no volume earlier on, beatmatching by ear, and then throwing the volume fader up at the drop. This doesn't appeal to me because I can easily under/overshoot the position of the volume fader. Instead, I can use the xfader but the same concern applies, just a little less so. Also, starting a track earlier means I have to set all my cue points X number of beats before the actual drop. This doesn't appeal to me either because, for logical purposes, I'd like my cue points to be set at a drop.

Can anyone give any insight as to how they do this without hitting sync?

I have a Hercules Instinct, not nearly as nice as your RMX :P, but i personally use slip-cuing. The way my controller works makes this easy, but it may take some modification if your controller works differently

Put 1 song on the speakers and 1 in the headphones. Now listen carefully through the headphones and try and find the first beat in a bar, do this by counting 1-2-3-4 (It's also a good idea to sync the sections too). When you have found the beat, place a cue marker on it. Now the way my cue works is that i hit one of the numbers while my buttons are in cue mode, so say if i placed the cue marker as no. 1, i would then hit 1 a few times, just to make sure i've nailed it. Now, at this point i take off the headphones, and hit the cue button to the beat of the song, then when i hear the first beat in the bar, hit it and leave it alone. You can then check the beats by listening through your headphones with 1 ear, and if it isn't quite right, just nudge the track in the headphones. The songs should now be pretty much in sync.

Obviously this technique is not perfect, but as you improve you need to do less nudging and you can nail the track with just slip-cuing it!

So, Practice slip-cuing! If this has been a bit hard to understand, just search "slip cue tutorial" on youtube and you'll be overwhelmed with the amount of results!

bnr
03-27-2013, 03:36 AM
What i do to get breakdown to buildup drops done perfectly is set a 4 beat loop on the incoming song. Then play this loop during the breakdown of the outgoing song and beatmatch it in your headphones. When the drop comes slam your crossfader and exit the loop.

DJNR
03-27-2013, 04:12 AM
What i do to get breakdown to buildup drops done perfectly is set a 4 beat loop on the incoming song. Then play this loop during the breakdown of the outgoing song and beatmatch it in your headphones. When the drop comes slam your crossfader and exit the loop.

I do this too occasionally. To be honest though, I don't have a hard time getting perfectly on beat with the cue button on CDJs.

Blue Shoes
03-27-2013, 06:35 AM
I tap the cue to the beat generally like this (if I can explain this at all)

cue..........cue..........cue..........cue...cue.. .play

So hitting the cue on each beat and then twice before I hit the play.
I saw Ellaskins doing it when I first started learning to mix and did it from there because I tried once and it worked well. Now I get it pretty spot on with just about every track but I still spend a few seconds to make sure its perfect.

The only time It really seems necessary to me is when dropping in an acapella and at that time you have some wiggle room anyway.


Here's a mix of mine. At about 1:15, I do this though I still have headphones on. But you can see what I do. Even if it is slightly dark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opYupvJlicM

Blue Shoes
03-27-2013, 06:44 AM
This sort of thing is why I could never play a on a set up with rubber buttons long term. I don't trust the response times.

Also, what's the difference between quantize and Auto-sync. I'm not having a dig at anyone and I don't want to open a can of worms but I know what quantize is and that's exactly what I thought auto-sync does.

aaron altar
03-27-2013, 08:57 AM
Sync matches bpm and quantize lines up the beats.

disparate
03-27-2013, 09:35 AM
^yep. Even if you sync two tracks' speeds you still need to get them in time with each other.

DJNR
03-27-2013, 11:21 AM
Sync matches bpm and quantize lines up the beats.


^yep. Even if you sync two tracks' speeds you still need to get them in time with each other.

Both these statements are sort of true. Traktor for example has two types of sync: beat sync and tempo sync. The case you guys mentioned was tempo sync, where the BPM is only matched and you still need to bring the track on beat. With beat sync, Traktor matches the beat as well as the tempo.

Quantize is different than both forms of sync in that with most actions that you do that involve a grid within a track (cue or loop jumping for example) it will be on beat with the current track that is playing. It doesn't really match the beats for you, but you could use it in that way I suppose.

Sigma
03-27-2013, 12:30 PM
This sort of thing is why I could never play a on a set up with rubber buttons long term. I don't trust the response times.

Also, what's the difference between quantize and Auto-sync. I'm not having a dig at anyone and I don't want to open a can of worms but I know what quantize is and that's exactly what I thought auto-sync does.
Just to expand on what DJNR said....

Traktor beat grids songs when it analyses them, so it places evenly space lines throughout the song which hit on each kick or snare. When you press the sync button in beat sync mode, 2 things happen. Traktor will speed the song up or slow it down so that the lines from each grid are spaced apart by the exact same distance. It then aligns both grids. That's what gives you perfect auto-sync as long as the beat grids are good.

Quantise snaps certain actions to the grid, for example, if you're using a Z2 mixer you can push buttons on it to create cue points on the fly. If quantise is turned on, the cue point will snap itself to the nearest grid marker. If quantise is turned off, the cue point will be created at the exact point where you pressed the button.

Blue Shoes
03-28-2013, 04:14 AM
Just to expand on what DJNR said....

Traktor beat grids songs when it analyses them, so it places evenly space lines throughout the song which hit on each kick or snare. When you press the sync button in beat sync mode, 2 things happen. Traktor will speed the song up or slow it down so that the lines from each grid are spaced apart by the exact same distance. It then aligns both grids. That's what gives you perfect auto-sync as long as the beat grids are good.

Quantise snaps certain actions to the grid, for example, if you're using a Z2 mixer you can push buttons on it to create cue points on the fly. If quantise is turned on, the cue point will snap itself to the nearest grid marker. If quantise is turned off, the cue point will be created at the exact point where you pressed the button.

Ah, ok. I imagine many auto-sync features would also use a quantize feature
I've seen the beat gridding on RekordBox and while usually pretty good, I've seen a few that were way off. I don't think I'd trust it for beat matching.

I guess it would be fantastic for loops and setting cue points. I usually just use cue points for acapellas or vocal parts in songs so having it near enough does the job usually. And after a bit of practice, I've become pretty good at setting loops pretty accurately now.

mr_ragz
03-30-2013, 04:31 PM
I'm going to assume by "dropping beats" there is the implied style of music of edm,house,electro,whatever,etc. 4/4 basically?

People have been dropping it on vinyl for decades, with no sync or visuals whatsoever. My suggestion is dont at the computer and use your ears and intuition and practice practice practice as it has been stated :tup:

Kepik
03-30-2013, 04:39 PM
In a breakdown, even when there's NO beats and just atmospheric sounds, its still following a 4/4 structure. If you're really good in beatmatching, you can count/feel the rhythm and know how to adjust Track B's pitch relative to Track A's flow. Don't know if Trakor has beatgrids, but those help out in beatmatching when Track B's beats should hit on the first beat of the bar.

deathsupport
03-31-2013, 02:01 PM
People have been dropping it on vinyl for decades, with no sync or visuals whatsoever. My suggestion is dont at the computer and use your ears and intuition and practice practice practice as it has been stated :tup:
Many people have said practice... that is like asking the question "how do I properly rev-match in a manual car" and getting the response "practice". Yes I know it takes practice but I was interested in specific techniques that people use. If I wasn't very clear before, my technique involves starting the second track on the right beat and hitting sync right away in order to match up the phase, rather than using the jog wheels because even a millisecond difference between the two tracks can be quite noticeable. Sometimes my timing is pretty good, and other times it's not - I'll keep going at it.

SlvrDragon50
04-01-2013, 08:18 PM
Don't mean to threadjack, but it's pretty closely related.

I'm finding that when I try to drop in the track to beat match (manually), I'm never able to drop them in phase. I always have to press cue repeatedly for a couple of beats to get it on the spot. Is this due to audio lag between the interfaces or is my technique just wrong (or it could be what Blue Shoes said)

I know if you wnted to do a continuous loop using cue points, you would press the cue a tad bit before the beat, but I'm having trouble with this when it's two different tracks.

Azaex
04-06-2013, 11:09 PM
What i do to get breakdown to buildup drops done perfectly is set a 4 beat loop on the incoming song. Then play this loop during the breakdown of the outgoing song and beatmatch it in your headphones. When the drop comes slam your crossfader and exit the loop.

Personally, I try to start the track using the cue button, tapping it in beat and crossfading over when it's time, really really really need to work on getting the practice in on that precision though. The most effective method I've found is bnr's comment though, though sometimes I'll just forget to exit the loop :uhoh:. Practice practice practice >.<

BurntToast
04-09-2013, 09:22 AM
1. Practice it in your headphones before you want to do it live. If you need to nudge it, are you typically ahead or behind? Knowing if you're consistently off in the same direction can help you out when you need to make the adjustment. If you practice it enough, you'll eventually know if you're early or late right when you hit the button.

2. Keep the volume on the incoming track a bit lower. Listen through your headphones so you can hear "track B" louder in your headphones than an audience can coming out of the speakers. Make the adjustment to sync it up and then increase the volume when you're confident that it's matched.

Practice. Practice. Practice and you'll find what works best for you.

BurntToast
04-09-2013, 10:34 AM
Also, the quantize feature is nice too.

DJPrince
04-15-2013, 03:26 PM
Practice.

I spend most of my time on my turntables lately, it just takes practice and know your crates.