PDA

View Full Version : if you have a nice track but it is on a mixtape what do you do?



moyo wilde
02-24-2012, 12:49 AM
pretty much that is my question. what do you guys do if there is a nice track on a mixtape, and only on a mixtape, but the sound quality is iffy? by iffy i mean the recording quality or it isn't a 320 mp3.

do you play it as is? do you play it if it has random drop by dj iiiissssmoooboooob in the middle?

DjDisArm
02-24-2012, 12:53 AM
i'd stay away from songs with drops unless its a heater

moyo wilde
02-24-2012, 07:21 AM
yeah me too unless i can edit it out, it isn't too loud or it works well in the song.

DjDisArm
02-24-2012, 12:38 PM
yeah but you also dont wanna compromise your sound quality

rchecka
02-24-2012, 03:07 PM
do you play it as is? do you play it if it has random drop by dj iiiissssmoooboooob in the middle?

"Play it" as in harvest it and mix it in to your mix as your own? Or play it as in it's going on my Ipod and sounds too tinny?
I think there is an unspoken rule of thumb that extracting an mp3 of any quality from anyone elses mix and mixing it on your own mix is blatant biting and a fake DJ trick. If you can't think of your own tracklisting and you absolutely must put it on your mix, you could find it on it's OG source, (record, CD or mp3) or download it from Itunes, that would be the only real thing to do.

NickyNines
02-24-2012, 03:23 PM
No never play it! Do some research, find it, and purchase it or get it as a promo from the artist if they don't have it for sale. About the cheesiest thing you can do is play a song with a drop from someone else; let alone playing a drop with your own dj name haha.

bernardgregory
02-24-2012, 05:06 PM
No never play it! Do some research, find it, and purchase it or get it as a promo from the artist if they don't have it for sale. About the cheesiest thing you can do is play a song with a drop from someone else; let alone playing a drop with your own dj name haha.


this. dont ever. ever. play a song with another DJs drops.

BuddyUK
02-24-2012, 06:05 PM
Buy the fcuking record lad :facepalm:

Sigma
02-24-2012, 11:15 PM
It's extremely rare that a track is only available on some other DJ's mixtape.

Whether I would play it or not depends on the circumstances. If it had another DJ's drop over it then I wouldn't play it. If the sound quality was pretty poor I may include it in a mixtape of my own if there was a good reason to, but I wouldn't play it out live. If the sound quality is good and there are no drops, or I can edit them out, then I would play the track live if there was no other way to get it.

moyo wilde
02-25-2012, 03:56 AM
i am not talking about:

using somebody else's mix, just a song from a mixtape. you know the kind where there are songs that don't appear anywhere else but on said dj's tape. or the only thing the group puts out is a mixtape.

i would purchase if it was available.

some songs only appear on mixtapes for various reasons sometimes the artist wasn't able to get the sample clearance, etc. maybe i'll try to contact the artist nvr thought of that probably doesn't work with stars though. thanx nick.

BuddyUK
02-25-2012, 05:51 AM
Even though I don't go in for the sampling is theft hoo-hah sounds a lot like theft to me nicking some other DJ's dub, get your own dubs lad.

rchecka
02-25-2012, 11:28 AM
It's extremely rare that a track is only available on some other DJ's mixtape.

Whether I would play it or not depends on the circumstances. If it had another DJ's drop over it then I wouldn't play it. If the sound quality was pretty poor I may include it in a mixtape of my own if there was a good reason to, but I wouldn't play it out live. If the sound quality is good and there are no drops, or I can edit them out, then I would play the track live if there was no other way to get it.

Man, this comment is disappointing, I never woulda guessed you'd try to give a pass like that. Why would you even attempt to justify taking a track from another DJs mix to put on your own mix? It's DJ biting period, there's never a good reason to bite another DJs style. I would be pretty ticked off, if I found out one of the tracks from one of my mixes ended up on some poser DJs mix because he or she didn't feel like tracking down the source. I pay for every song that ends up in my mixes. I support the artist and the mix has a better sound so it's well worth it to cough up the dough instead of being lazy and cheap. Even if the DJ had only one of 5 copies that exist of a record in the mix, if another DJ wants to mix it, he or she is obligated to find one of the other 4 copies to use. If the track can't be found, then the original DJ that used the track deserves exclusive use of it since they repped it for real. Can't find it elsewhere? Too bad, don't use it, it was never meant to be. Believe me, there's all kinds of tracks I'd like to use that other DJs used before me, but if I took em off another mixtape, it would be an insult to the DJ who used it first, an insult to the artist for stealing it instead of paying for it, an insult to the art of DJing altogether, and an automatic poser stamp on myself for ripping it off whether or not I got busted for doing it. Like everyone else on the thread is saying, don't be a poser, just find the record. If it's a 100 dollar record and you can't afford it, show a little integrity and wait until you got the funds to buy it. You'll earn respect by trying to do a little modern crate digging, and mixing with real records, and not trying to be a microwave popcorn instant DJ. There's enough of those DJs out there that haven't spent one penny on their entire catalog of mp3 music and don't have enough knowledge to pick their own tracks without biting another DJ's style, do you really wanna be one of those guys?

Sigma
02-25-2012, 12:13 PM
What I said has nothing to do with not buying records or not buying music full stop. I'm talking about tracks that are unavailable to buy. I give about as much of a shit about jacking a track from a DJ's mix as your favourite 80s hip-hop acts did about jacking beats from Clyde Stubblefield. :D

On the topic of buying rare records though, for my 79 mix I couldn't find one of the tracks I wanted to use. A copy later sold on eBay for 308 bucks. I ripped the track from YouTube, cos that was literally the only place I could find it. I don't see the point of such elitist snobbery when it comes to this stuff. If I'd bought the record (and I wouldn't have paid $308+ for it even if I had the option at the time), it wouldn't have helped the artist out one bit as they're not seeing any of that money. Including it in the mix means that anyone that listens to it gets to hear their tune and I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I've only ever bought maybe 2 or 3 MP3s. I don't like buying music in that format unless I have to. I have bought fuck tons of records, tapes and CDs since I started collecting music in 1979 though, so it's not like I'm one of those twats who has a massive collection of low bitrate MP3s and nothing else, but there are exceptions to every rule. For instance, before that LL record came out (the one a few of us here bought), if I was making an LL Cool J mix I would probably have included the radio rip of that track in the mix cos I love it and think people should hear it. As it goes, when it did came out I paid $100 for one of the 10 test pressings, so you know I'm not averse to dropping decent amounts on vinyl. That said, I'm not excluding myself from playing a track just because it's either unavailable to buy anywhere or it's only available for $300+ for a fucked up used copy on eBay.

DjDisArm
02-25-2012, 12:30 PM
this are getting serious up in this piece

rchecka
02-25-2012, 12:42 PM
What I said has nothing to do with not buying records or not buying music full stop. I'm talking about tracks that are unavailable to buy. I give about as much of a shit about jacking a track from a DJ's mix as your favourite 80s hip-hop acts did about jacking beats from Clyde Stubblefield. :D


Aww man, this saddens me.




On the topic of buying rare records though, for my 79 mix I couldn't find one of the tracks I wanted to use. A copy later sold on eBay for 308 bucks. I ripped the track from YouTube, cos that was literally the only place I could find it.


Sure, but that's off topic, the OP is talking about removing the song from a mixtape not youtube. Youtube jacking is forgiveable, kind of, but frankly I wouldn't do that either. But in that case, you HAD to have that song, that was the entire point of your mix to complete a 1979 HH mix you had to do what was feasible. But you didn't cut it out of another mixtape, that's what were talking about.



I don't see the point of such elitist snobbery when it comes to this stuff.


You stand alone dude, you are the only one on this thread telling the OP to jack from another DJs mix. You can call it snobbery, I call it integrity. Real DJs dont need to jack.



If I'd bought the record (and I wouldn't have paid $308+ for it even if I had the option at the time), it wouldn't have helped the artist out one bit as they're not seeing any of that money. Including it in the mix means that anyone that listens to it gets to hear their tune and I don't see how that's a bad thing.


Man, I respect you Sigma, but if you are trying to justify it with the whole resale thing, that isn't helping you out. Owning what you play is the integrity I am talking about. I take pride in buying my own records not stealing em from some dude online. I'm mixing my shit, my collection, which is my DJ identity. I'm being me, I ain't trying to be John Digweed Track 5. Would you respect a DJ who bought his own shit and played his own shit more than the DJ who milked other DJs like cows to fake his identity? If DJing is an artform, real DJs should find their own music like an artist should buy his own paint. If John Digweed has a record that I can't find, then maybe he earned it by finding it and repping it and maybe that's what an exclusive track is all about. Exclusives make a DJ special, taking it away via technology is a crutch for a weak DJ, plain and simple. If it the track ain't out there, the DJ is outta luck, that's not just DJing, that's life, you can't always get what you want.

dlove
02-25-2012, 01:12 PM
good post rchecka, you say "I ain't trying to be John Digweed Track 5" and that's another thing; if someone rips 'track 5' the knowledge of the original is lost - there was no hunt, no trail, no love at the end. The point of mixtapes are many, one of them being a place to hear music you then go out and buy for yourself.

thehadgi
02-25-2012, 01:13 PM
I say do what you gotta do to get a good mix. Its the mix that matters.

Don't use another dj's drop obv, but if the only thing standing in the way of greatness for your mix is some rare track that you can't find anywhere, you know what you gotta do.

In ten years, people will go "Wow, great mix and selection. That dj is dope." Also in ten years, no one will remember the elitist that is sulking in the corner because the dj didn't scour the face of the earth, pay a million dollars, and cut off his arm all to make sure his mix was ok with a bunch of guys on the Internet.

Sigma
02-25-2012, 01:15 PM
If DJing is an artform, real DJs should find their own music like an artist should buy his own paint.
I've heard lots of good tracks for the first time in another DJ's mixes. That is finding music. Or is it only "finding music" if I shop in the same place DJ Shadow does and grow a long beard that I can stroke while I'm browsing the dusty record racks in the basement? :teef:

Lots of the very music that you love was created by producers who effectively stole sections of other people's music and used it without paying or crediting the artist who made it. And it's not like every sample ever used was found on some obscure track in a dusty record shop either. Look how many times something like Funky Drummer has been sampled.

As for the artist thing, again, lots of graff artists steal/stole paint. I don't look at a piece and think "that's great, unless the guy stole the paint, then it's shit and he's a fake".


Exclusives make a DJ special, taking it away via technology is a crutch for a weak DJ, plain and simple. If it the track ain't out there, the DJ is outta luck, that's not just DJing, that's life, you can't always get what you want.
But I can always get what I want in this case. You're just setting a limit on that that I don't subscribe to. If you put something out and I steal from it, unlucky!

If the only way I could have got that First Class - Rappin' It Up track for 79 was to cut it out of another mix, then I'd have done that. Obviously I would not have included any of the other DJ's mixing, scratching, drops or whatever. You say you wouldn't have ripped it from YouTube, so if you were making that mix then your options would have been: -

1. Forget the mix altogether
2. Wait around to see if it pops up on eBay, knowing that it sells for $300+ on the rare occasions it's for sale
3. Leave that song out, which is not great for the theme of a mix that's supposed to feature every hip-hop record released in 1979

I don't see how any of those options are better than the one I took. If I said "yeah, I own all those tracks on vinyl" then I'm Mr. Credible. If I said "I ripped one of those tracks from another mix cos I couldn't find it anywhere" then I'm Mr. Fake, even though the mix is exactly the same either way. You can create a false situation where a DJ is "milking other DJs like cows" but nobody's talking about that here.

dlove
02-25-2012, 01:21 PM
hi Sigma :)

but stealing sections to cut up & make into another record is not ripping a track from another DJ's mixtape to play it as is!

dlove
02-25-2012, 01:22 PM
and the racked paint is not sold or passed on as is, either; it's sprayed to make art, or more likely, a badly-spelled mess :)

thehadgi
02-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Edit to my post above: Didn't mean to call peeps elitist, everyone has their methods. But gotta figure out how you can progress musically, and not to stall your progress because of peoples opinions

Sigma
02-25-2012, 01:29 PM
hi Sigma :)

but stealing sections to cut up & make into another record is not ripping a track from another DJ's mixtape to play it as is!
You're assuming that I would play it as is....

Here's the track I ripped from YouTube: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncawDgRJFGw

For the mix, I took various sections of bassline from the beginning of the track and scratched them up/layered them to create a different sound, plus I did cuts on other parts of the track too.

This is the transition into that track on my mix: -

http://www.sigmamixes.com/mixes/79%20Sample.mp3

rchecka
02-25-2012, 01:34 PM
No matter which way you spin it this a question of ethics and mutual respect for your fellow DJ's art.
The OP should turn this into a poll if possible.

Is it right or wrong, there is no question if it can be done or not, we all know it can be done.

dlove
02-25-2012, 01:39 PM
You're assuming that I would play it as is....



I was talking about the OP - I know your skills, and if you felt like running a cassette track (yeah, even taped off the radio) through a mix, I'd bet it would sound good.

Sigma
02-25-2012, 01:46 PM
No matter which way you spin it this a question of ethics and mutual respect for your fellow DJ's art.
I've got respect for a DJ's art, but if you put a mix out and I cut a track out of it and use it, then I'm not that different from the graff artists stealing his paint or the hip-hop producer stealing a sample of another artist's work. I'll make something of my own out of it.

Here's a section of a mix I'm working on now: -

http://i.imgur.com/sQCxX.jpg

It's 2 tracks cut up into 50 or so audio blocks and layered about 9 tracks deep with cuts, effects, panning etc. That mix section took me ages to make, but it's only 15 seconds long. I put more effort into this than 99% of DJs ever will, but I'm some lamer if I'd cut one of those tracks out of a mix or ripped it from YouTube? Fuck off.

dlove
02-25-2012, 01:46 PM
more to the point Sigma, you know your music, and as a turntablist, make new sounds with the music you have. Miles apart from the original post, mate.

moyo wilde
02-25-2012, 01:54 PM
tons of graffiti artists stole their spray paint and their canvases were other people's property, tons of old school hip hop artists stole samples.

what is the difference from taking it from youtube and taking it from a mixtape?

i don't want the blend/mix just the song. one song i edited even the song in the official music video they did was from the mixtape. i did a search leading me to believe the only copy is the mixtape. and this is a "mixtape" of one mc, given away free as promotion for said mc. not a dj showing his style or whatever.

thiniking about what i might do is chop & flip it up add some drums, then i'll have my own bootleg and it will solve the sound quality issue.

Sigma
02-25-2012, 02:01 PM
more to the point Sigma, you know your music, and as a turntablist, make new sounds with the music you have. Miles apart from the original post, mate.
The OP clarified at the bottom of page 1 that he wasn't even talking about a DJ mix. He was talking about a "mixtape" as in what a rapper might put out for promo purposes.

rchecka
02-25-2012, 02:13 PM
Sigma, you keep bringing up yer 1979 mix (which I respected since it was educational and well mixed) but it's not about that. It sounds a bit defensive when you keep bringing that up.

The OP is asking if it's ok to remove music from another DJs completed mix and claim it as his own. That's using technology as a shortcut and crutch to steal from another DJs final work and real DJs don't need to do that period. Think about how many alternate tracks would mix in just as good if not better then the one track that the OP is thinking he has to have.

Now on the other hand, if the OP gave the DJs he jacked credit, and did it with every single track on his mix without editing the intro or outro of each song, it would not only be art, but it would be HIGHLY respected because imagine how hard that would be. That would be true art because it is respecting, celebrating and giving credit for other DJs output instead of masking it as their own. Only posers do that shit.

moyo wilde
02-25-2012, 02:13 PM
uh i am not going to make it a poll, cause the original post was about sound quality etc. not whether it was right/wrong or moral/immoral. to be honest i am not really interested in that question.

could care less what other people's twisted logic is at the end of the day you do you and i do me.

rcheka and dlove come in stating things as fact when they aren't, they are yous guys personal opinions and there is really no point having a discussion with people who mistake opinion for fact.

i got the info i wanted. thanks nick and sigma in a jam i'll contact said artist or create a bootleg remix. repped.

thehadgi
02-25-2012, 02:17 PM
could care less what other people's twisted logic is at the end of the day you do you and i do me.



and rep for you sir :tup:

rchecka
02-25-2012, 02:28 PM
uh i am not going to make it a poll, cause the original post was about sound quality etc. not whether it was right/wrong or moral/immoral. to be honest i am not really interested in that question.

Of course, that's pretty obvious now.

Started a poll (http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?2431-Question-for-the-DJs-Is-it-Ok-to-take-songs-of-another-DJs-mixtape-for-your-mixtape).

Sigma
02-25-2012, 02:33 PM
The OP is asking if it's ok to remove music from another DJs completed mix and claim it as his own.
No, he's not. This is what he's talking about: -


this is a "mixtape" of one mc, given away free as promotion for said mc. not a dj showing his style or whatever.
But I'm sure your loaded poll that's not even about what moyo was asking about will yield the result that justifies your snobbery. :lol:


Sigma, you keep bringing up yer 1979 mix (which I respected since it was educational and well mixed) but it's not about that. It sounds a bit defensive when you keep bringing that up.
You're probably going to need to edit this: -


Sigma, just played the whole thing, I gotta say you did it just right! It musta been hard to get the edits right when songs had no hook, lasted 12 minutes in original form and the BPMs were so off, but you did it seamlessly. Very impressed by this!

Yall need to download this one-of-a-kind Hip Hop mix, do not sleep on it! It's educational, funky, scratching is on point, edits are tight, loaded w/ classics and obscurities. And like your outro says, 79 is where it all began, if it wasn't for 1979 Hip Hop there would be no Hip Hop at all!

The only song on there I didn't like was that Steve Gordon and the Kosher 5. That one was probably the birth of poser Hip Hop, (Rap made very badly by non rap artists). Shortly after the explosion of Hip Hop in the early 80s, singles like that mocked Hip Hop, made people think of it like a novelty. Singles like that went on the philosophy that just about anyone can rap badly, but lets make money off rap while it's hot. Thank God that period of poser Hip Hop only lasted a few years. Luckily, you didn't play it too long, you cut it off right when it started getting corny. I can see why you included it though since there wasn't a ton of rap released that year and you wanted to be thorough.

My favorite track on there is Wack Rap by the Wackies. That normally is predominantly a dub reggae crew and while they too jumped on the rap bandwagon, they did it with class, keeping their dubby style. I really love the Bullwackies, they drop some top notch dub production, as you can probably see by the label image, don't sleep if you find their dub records.

Thanks again for sharing this with everyone here, I know there are a lot of heads that will enjoy this mix. Speaking of which, guys if you take time to download this, make sure you give Sigma some words here on this. This is a gift of music, from a dude that knows how to entertain and educate simultaneously, so please thank him if you download it and give him some useful words. We want all our DJs to feel like they can drop their mixes on this forum and get good feedback, so take a few seconds to holler.

Keep on rockin it Sigma, I'm gonna be rotating this one all summer long.
To something like this: -


This mix sucks! Sigma is a poser!

rchecka
02-25-2012, 02:50 PM
Dude you gotta stop now man, again, its not about 1979. I stand by my quotes, I stand by my review of 1979 still. I never said this mix sucks, sigma's a poser, it's not about you and now you are misquoting me.

We all know that you can take another DJs song, its whether or not it's worth even trying. The OP got his answer, you gave yours, I disagree and frankly I think it's pretty weak to even ask how to do it.

You gots to chill, there's no reason to bring unnecessary baggage to the table, we're having a discussion, right?

Sigma
02-25-2012, 02:54 PM
The OP was talking about a mixtape that an MC puts out for promotional purposes not a DJ mix, so you weren't even answering his question.


You gots to chill
How dare you say that without crediting EPMD. Fucking poser!

DjDisArm
02-25-2012, 06:26 PM
:lol:

dlove
02-26-2012, 03:38 AM
uh i am not going to make it a poll, cause the original post was about sound quality etc. not whether it was right/wrong or moral/immoral. to be honest i am not really interested in that question.

could care less what other people's twisted logic is at the end of the day you do you and i do me.

rcheka and dlove come in stating things as fact when they aren't, they are yous guys personal opinions and there is really no point having a discussion with people who mistake opinion for fact.

i got the info i wanted. thanks nick and sigma in a jam i'll contact said artist or create a bootleg remix. repped.

your original post said nothing about a remix- you even mentioned a name-drop you'd have to get round if you ripped & played the tune. (name drops are there to prevent theft, after all.)

rchecka
02-26-2012, 08:16 AM
^ exactly. But since we called em out, they decided to do some back pedaling and suddenly its about something else completely. Right, pretend the ball is under this cup now, maybe no one wil notice. What a trainwreck:lol:

BuddyUK
02-26-2012, 08:25 AM
but if you put a mix out and I cut a track out of it and use it, then I'm not that different from the graff artists stealing his paint.

If he's cutting the whole track out and chucking it in his mix, he's stealing the other guys style bro, ask a graff artist what they think of that, I've already said i don't go in for the whole sampling not being stealing thing, completely different issue IMO.

Sigma
02-26-2012, 08:28 AM
I'm not back-pedalling. What I said is totally clear. I couldn't care less about your principles. If all producers/artists acted like that then a lot of good stuff wouldn't ever have been made, so thankfully they weren't so stuck up their own arses.


If he's cutting the whole track out and chucking it in his mix, he's stealing the other guys style bro
Nonsense. He's taking one track off a mixtape, not stealing another guy's style.

BuddyUK
02-26-2012, 08:37 AM
It's the other guys dub, that is his style, like i said before get his own dubs innit.


Also think that you are taking this criticism against YOU personally rather than OP.

rchecka
02-26-2012, 08:44 AM
Mixtape or mix, its still jacking a song from a DJ.
You are backpedaling Sigma, trying to save face from a meltdown yesterday.
Start talking about how it's ok for your 1979 mix, then you'll feel better about yourself again.:lol:

Sigma
02-26-2012, 08:53 AM
It's the other guys dub, that is his style, like i said before get his own dubs innit.
I don't think you're reading what people are saying. The OP started off by asking what do you do if a track is ONLY available on a mixtape and you responded with "buy the record lad".

I find rchecka's attitude hypocritical for a number of reasons: -

1. Many graff artists did steal paint, so that analogy just doesn't work.
2. Many hip-hop producers took samples of other artists' work without paying them or even crediting them, but you don't care about that.
3. You're talking about "respecting artists" when you're making mixes of their tracks without permission and distributing them for free in MP3 format on the Internet.
4. Sometimes you post mixes without posting a track listing, which makes it even harder for people to "buy the record lad" and support the artists.

Mr. Hypocritical Dinosaur.

I'll sample from any source I like. If you don't like it, tough! It doesn't stop you from giving my mixes props. ;)


You are backpedaling Sigma, trying to save face from a meltdown yesterday.
I'm not back-pedalling. Me saying "I would sample from any source I like" and me saying "the OP was talking about a mixtape put out by an MC" are not connected. Some of you boys jumped to conclusions without even reading what he was saying though.

rchecka
02-26-2012, 09:26 AM
^fizzle. (Digging deeper into the quicksand, Sigma resorts to steps 1-4 to change the topic away from his face)



3. You're talking about "respecting artists" when you're making mixes of their tracks without permission and distributing them for free in MP3 format on the Internet.


Yeah, shame on me. Shame on the DJ Submission Forum.

Yep, it's all just one big miscommunication and the edit button is your friend.

Just stop Sigma, everyone knows you think it's ok to jack a DJs style, and his music directly from his final output. Now your just trying to throw curve balls, and you can't even pitch underhand.

"Wait look over there!!! (punch in the gut and run away)"

I can't find a picture of backpedaling on Google damnit.

Sigma
02-26-2012, 09:31 AM
I ain't taking anyone's style. I was making mixes when you were still sucking on your momma's titties. I'll sample a tune from anywhere though.

And spare me the trolling. You seem to think that me saying "the OP was talking about a mixtape put out by an MC" is back-pedalling, yet you seem oblivious to the fact that I've said "I'll sample from anywhere!" several times. It's clear where I stand.


Yeah, shame on me. Shame on the DJ Submission Forum.
Oh, so if other DJs do it, it's OK then? Haha. Straw clutching. Your principles are bullshit. You don't even adhere to them yourself.

rchecka
02-26-2012, 10:44 AM
Oh, so if other DJs do it, it's OK then? Haha. Straw clutching. Your principles are bullshit. You don't even adhere to them yourself.

HUH?

http://backyardsportsblog.typepad.com/.a/6a014e88d37c32970d0162ff323095970d-800wi

Where are you going now?


"Ok gang! You go this way, and I'll go this way."


ZOINKS, its the swamp monster!!!!!


Seriously dude, even your smoke machine has malfunctioned. Quit while you are behind.

Sigma
02-26-2012, 11:00 AM
What are you talking about now?

I can see why you resort to posting "funny" pictures, because your argument is all over the place. It's comprised of nothing but self-imposed restrictions based on your idea of what "real" is. This is what we've deduced so far: -

1. A "real" artist never steals anything! (you failed to respond to the comments about graff artists and hip-hop producers cos that makes your entire point moot, so best ignore that or post a "funny").
2. A "real" DJ only ever plays a track in the mix if they own the original on vinyl. Other formats are for posers!
3. You're huge on "supporting the artist", but have no problem distributing mixes of their work for free and without permission, some of which don't have track listings to credit the artists involved.

I said that I will sample from anything. I still say that. I will jack a tune from your mix and fuck with it if I so choose. What you gonna do? Sue me? But because I said "the OP was talking about a mixtape put out by an MC and not a DJ mix", you seem to think I'm back-pedalling. I'm not. I'll say it once more - I will sample from anything - how is that not clear to you?

Boomcie
02-26-2012, 01:24 PM
So if I wanted to I shouldn't use this song in a mix because it is only available on this mixtape?


http://youtu.be/Pe2bnWHmB9I

Mixtapes are just free promotional albums for artists. They are tracked out and don't actually contain any actual mixing. I have tons of mixtapes ****** back almost 20 years, and they all contain some tracks that were never released except on that mixtape.

The Judge
02-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Ok, so DJ A makes a mixtape with an exclusive track (not DJ A's own creation though) that cannot be bought/gathered anywhere else; DJ B wants to include said track in his own mix/mixtape - issue is whether that is ok? Am I getting this right or is there some other kind of shenanigans going on here?

Way I see it, if the track is DJ A's own production/mash up/creative work, then don't use it or at least ask and credit him. If it's not DJ A's personal creation/track, props to him for getting the exclusive, but if you're not passing it off as your own exclusive, why not use it? DJs play tracks they don't get permission for all the friggin time. What makes this situation any different? Because it's taken from another DJ? Honour amongst 'thieves'? Part of it comes down to mentality as I see it - whether you want the people to hear the track or want the credit for breaking the track yourself. No-one can take away from you the fact you were the first; why limit a track's potential audience?

Let's put a hypothetical out there - Biggie decides not to put Hypnotize on Life After Death (couldn't clear the sample). After Biggie dies, Funk Flex finds a recording of it and puts it on one of his mixtapes. Funk makes 50 copies of the mixtape because he's fat and lazy. Is that it? 50 copies of Hypnotize in existence? You can't mix the track into one of your own mixes and have the ears of however many hundreds/thousands hear a classic?

Just trying to find what the lines are here. It seems mad people would agree with the hypothetical above.

Boomcie
02-26-2012, 01:34 PM
That's pretty much what's going on(I guess)

Nick Bike
02-26-2012, 02:10 PM
all i'll say is i get annoyed when someone rips an exclusive track from my mixes or rips my own tracks off soundcloud or youtube to play out elsewhere. it's not so much that they jack style or steal the music, but they end up playing a track that has been degraded to 128kbps up to THREE TIMES OVER (my upload @ 128 - soundcloud/youtube crush to 128 - whateverthefuck those soundcloud/youtube audio rippers are, which rip to 128 most of the time). if they end up playing out that music and it sounds like it was recorded with a 90s tape recorder, then it makes the artist look like shit (and most likely you as well) and does not properly represent them.

i dunno i guess if you are just sampling minuscule sections and effecting the shit out of them then maybe it sounds no worse then some vinyl rips, but have some quality standards and at least ask the DJ/producer where you can find the track. i've asked countless djs about getting tracks, sometimes they say yes, sometimes they say no. if someone emails me about a tune, i dont think ive ever said no to passing it along.

long story short, stealing/sampling is nothing new, but i think a standard of quality is important. and some won't agree with that but this is clearly an opinion thread, so yeah.

BuddyUK
02-26-2012, 03:31 PM
I don't think you're reading what people are saying. The OP started off by asking what do you do if a track is ONLY available on a mixtape and you responded with "buy the record lad".

If it's never released then tough, it's DJ X's dub and he'll just have to live with it, also I'll bet you it's a promo as well. Probably be able to buy it soon enough, if he is one of the few of us left who actually PAY for music.


1. Many graff artists did steal paint, so that analogy just doesn't work.

As a former writer (I'm in a book!) and more than aware of their (often stupid) attitudes about what a writer is and isn't, buy your paint, not a real writer, don't bomb or do legals, not a real writer, painting in another writer or crews area then they have the right to tax (rob) you, paint walls and not tubes, not a real writer, paint trains but not tubes, not a real writer etc. etc. the one thing they all agree on is that you DO NOT BITE, golden rule.

2. Many hip-hop producers took samples of other artists' work without paying them or even crediting them, but you don't care about that.

If your talking to me, already made my position on sampling clear, don't consider it theft, whether it's been cleared or not, if your taking the whole song and releasing under your own name I'm quite clear that it's stealing.

3. You're talking about "respecting artists" when you're making mixes of their tracks without permission and distributing them for free in MP3 format on the Internet.

We're all hypocrites then, but I don't pirate and mp3's are bullshit basically, all the value of a txt file, it's all a big con job.

4. Sometimes you post mixes without posting a track listing, which makes it even harder for people to "buy the record lad" and support the artists.

If your talking about my Si Begg mix on soundcloud, I have written permission from Si Begg personally to post and distribute it, why there isn't a tracklist is that many of those tracks are from record companies which no longer exist. Buy his new stuff if you like his style, it's available in all good record shops etc. nobody fcuking listens to my shit anyway, if a collector wanted to know the name of a tune I wouldn't keep it from him, I'd quite possibly give him the record if it meant that much to him.

Had some dude message me on discogs a couple of weeks ago asking to buy a super rare Shamen promo that i owned (got it through buying a crate of old promos from a famous techno DJ) , guy had been searching for it for years, looked at his collection Shamen, Shamen, Shamen obviously a completist, had a look through his collection saw a couple of old 92 hardcore records i used to own, really easy to get hold of if I really wanted to, said I'd swap them for it, he even mailed back and said didn't i want money for it as well. Course not, rather have him have it and enjoy it than just have it sittting about in my collection getting dusty and unplayed, could've scalped him but cant stand those cnuts and don't deal with them and will gladly call them out as the robbing bastards that they are.


Mr. Hypocritical Dinosaur.

See my answer to number 3


I'll sample from any source I like. If you don't like it, tough! It doesn't stop you from giving my mixes props. ;)


Never said you couldn't mate, or that I thought sampling was wrong.

Sigma
02-26-2012, 03:45 PM
The post you've broken down wasn't aimed at you man (my bad, cos in hindsight it might appear that it was), but...........


the one thing they all agree on is that you DO NOT BITE, golden rule.
I get this, but then, it's not like every graff artist "invented" graffiti is it? It all looks pretty much the same because people are effectively copying - putting their own spin on it, yes, but still copying. It's like scratching - very few people come up with actual techniques, and everyone that learns to scratch copies techniques invented by other DJs, then they use those to form their own patterns and freestyles.

I'm not advocated ripping off an entire mix or track listing, which would be like me copying one of your graff pieces so it looks exactly the same. My attitude to this isn't the same as most people's though. If someone heard my 79 mix (yes, rchecka, I'm bringing it up again!) and decided to try and do the same thing - i.e. make a mix of all the hip-hop tracks released in 79 - then I would love to hear that, even if they ripped a track out of my mix in order to make it. What I would not be too happy about is if someone included my scratching or mixing as part of their mix, or if they just mixed the tracks in the exact same order as I did cos that's kinda pointless to me.

BuddyUK
02-26-2012, 04:06 PM
The post you've broken down wasn't aimed at you man (my bad, cos in hindsight it might appear that it was), but...........


I get this, but then, it's not like every graff artist "invented" graffiti is it? It all looks pretty much the same because people are effectively copying - putting their own spin on it, yes, but still copying. It's like scratching - very few people come up with actual techniques, and everyone that learns to scratch copies techniques invented by other DJs, then they use those to form their own patterns and freestyles.



This is true, but they all write in the same shitty blobby style nowadays, if you can't write straight letters you have NO style, and as for stencils :mad: another golden rule mate, 20 odd years ago if you were biting someones letters or styles writers KNEW, even having a similar sounding name could end in violence, graf is shit nowadays there is no REAL scene, not even fcuking TOX is about anymore.

Dj_4-$hure
02-26-2012, 06:14 PM
I agree on Sigma on this one, and this is coming from a person who has actually stole spray paint from a hardware store, and hit up walls back in the days. And to Buddy Uk, pro graffiti artist are not dead, real hip hop is not dead, you're just around the wrong people.

Dj_4-$hure
02-26-2012, 06:22 PM
even having a similar sounding name could end in violence Talk about 30-40 heads throwing blows, been there done that!

I agree on Sigma on this one, and this is coming from a person who has actually stole spray paint from a hardware store, and hit up walls back in the days. And to Buddy Uk, pro graffiti artist are not dead, real hip hop is not dead, you're just around the wrong people.

BuddyUK
02-26-2012, 06:47 PM
Haven't been involved in Hip Hop in 20 years mate, just my opinion. The UK graf scene is DEAD, plenty of talented graffiti artists but no real writers anymore and I blame the 'hardcore' attitudes of some crews for it, not naming any names. But when I was starting out as a writer we were took under our wings by the older generation of writers and they introduced us to the guys who came before them who did the same for them (NONE of that for a long time nowadays, just 'badman' attitude). Same thing with the 'legal'/artistic writers, would come out bombing with us, riding the trains, doing the insides and outsides (under a diff name OFC), hiding under the platforms to tag the connectors, going yards. there was some respect going between us, some unity. CCTV and all the rest helped put an end to to the tubes and trains it but the shitty attitude of certain crews and guys who thought they were rudeboys was what helped put the nails in the cofffin. UK graf used to be #1 all over the world, now it's a joke, gets NO respect.

moyo wilde
02-26-2012, 09:55 PM
@nick that was my original question, thanks for your opinion. i am not ripping low quality they are offical mixtapes, just the mp3's are 192, there is a random dj drop or dj saying something in them or the recording quality isn't top notch not that you can say that for every "professionally" mastered song. i figure if i drop one or two in a set then there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

@sigma no i wouldn't take another dj's scratching and (peter) hook it up. side note remember when most hip hop had scratching in it. ten years ago i remember a record shop guy saying he really love a cd, why, because it had scratching in the songs. the sad state of hip hop.

@whoever if the dj drop is tasteful and doesn't interupt a mix, i'll leave it in. no sense in not giving somebody props for a job well done. one of my fav soundcloud producers does it and i have no problem leaving it in. but if it is somebody just shouting "it's muthafucking dj iiiiisssssmooobooooob dropping dope as beats in the the gotdamn house" yeah then i try to edit it out or leave the track alone.

@buddy
good read enjoyed it, especially point number 3.

morality/ethics aren't a right and worng thing as much as we like to think they are. at some point people have thought/think it was/is right to have more than one wife, to own slaves, to sacrifice virgins, that female adulters should be stoned.

dlove
02-27-2012, 03:01 AM
Haven't been involved in Hip Hop in 20 years mate, just my opinion. The UK graf scene is DEAD, plenty of talented graffiti artists but no real writers anymore and I blame the 'hardcore' attitudes of some crews for it, not naming any names. But when I was starting out as a writer we were took under our wings by the older generation of writers and they introduced us to the guys who came before them who did the same for them (NONE of that for a long time nowadays, just 'badman' attitude). Same thing with the 'legal'/artistic writers, would come out bombing with us, riding the trains, doing the insides and outsides (under a diff name OFC), hiding under the platforms to tag the connectors, going yards. there was some respect going between us, some unity. CCTV and all the rest helped put an end to to the tubes and trains it but the shitty attitude of certain crews and guys who thought they were rudeboys was what helped put the nails in the cofffin. UK graf used to be #1 all over the world, now it's a joke, gets NO respect.

I thought London graff' was the bomb until I went to live in Barcelona - I think the more latin styles are insane; the imagination of the writers in Rio blows that traditional 'wildstyle' away, i.m.o, yet I'll reserve stating it for sure til I've been to New York ;)

BuddyUK
02-27-2012, 06:45 AM
I thought London graff' was the bomb until I went to live in Barcelona - I think the more latin styles are insane; the imagination of the writers in Rio blows that traditional 'wildstyle' away, i.m.o, yet I'll reserve stating it for sure til I've been to New York ;)

If you're getting your image of London graffiti from going to carnival you are getting a very skewered view of London graf, first of all you have West London's NHS crew who always make an effort to spruce up the area before carnival despite police crackdowns, inviting writers from other areas etc. to join them. If anything they are keeping the true spirit of London graffiti alive and are MOST definitely not who I was talking about negatively before. Also Ladbroke Grove, Westbourne Park and the Westway was the epicentre of graf in London and the whole of Britain since the early 80's, Lots of HoF's etc. there so you're getting a pretty skewered picture of the real state of graffiti in London but there's is still a lot of disrespect shown there by new writers etc. As for the more abstract styles of graffiti they were very much pioneered here to and we had our own style as well, we didn't copy what was going on elsewhere like they do today, also before fucking Banksy and all his stencil shit and it suddenly becoming 'art' they were cracking down hard on writers, everyone was throwing away all their photo albums and sketchbooks in 90/91 even because BTP were carrying out dawn raids and using them as evidence to secure prison convictions and it got much heavier afterwards, every piece of graffiti on British Transport property is photographed as a tool to get convictions for massive amounts of criminal damage, get caught doing a piece you used to just get done for that and get a slap on the wrist, suddenly they were presenting reams of evidence and charging for sometimes £100,000's worth of criminal damage and pushing for custodial sentences, a lot of writers went to prison. Other countries were more accepting of graffiti as art and if not encouraging it, accepted it, BTP went to war, the train yards here are some of the most heavily guarded places on the planet, razor wire, infra red alarm trip wires, cctv before it became so popular :/ some crazy security they have there, they went well OTT. Plenty of old writers about who still guard their true identities for fear of arrest even today, they did everything they could to kill it.


Can't speak for New York but it's been gentrified and it's more more like Disneyland now than the New York of the 70's, I wouldn't expect much, Style Wars was pretty much an end of an era documentation of New York graffiti, it even shows the beginning of the crackdown, the old vanguard of New york writers are very dismissive of what scene there is there, don't expect to blown away by it, same goes for the once vibrant music scene.

dlove
02-27-2012, 06:53 AM
I'd give you some rep' Buddy, but I got to 'spread it around' first.

The perspex on Banky's stuff is ridiculous - considering he copied Blek Le Rat to start with, Banksy's not the last word on street art by a long chalk.

moyo wilde
02-27-2012, 09:16 AM
i did a little graf myself, oddly mostly flowers, and only on a wall my friends wall. he taught me some of the tricks and wanted me to go out bombing with him so that i would be "official". unfortunately i had to turn him down. i got into it late so i woulda felt hella stupid as a 35+ year old guy getting arrested for graf. also i am hella slow when i put a piece up.

like how this thread has drifted.

BuddyUK
02-27-2012, 10:28 AM
i did a little graf myself, oddly mostly flowers, and only on a wall my friends wall. he taught me some of the tricks and wanted me to go out bombing with him so that i would be "official". unfortunately i had to turn him down. i got into it late so i woulda felt hella stupid as a 35+ year old guy getting arrested for graf. also i am hella slow when i put a piece up.

like how this thread has drifted.

It's something you get into as a kid, an adult just doesn't have the enthusiasm to expend that much energy, put yourself into that much danger and get nothing in return. Gradually real life starts taking over and you drift out of it, I would say it kept me out of trouble but that would be a total lie.

rchecka
02-27-2012, 10:33 AM
like how this thread has drifted.

That's the only thing you said I agree with.

The reason it drifted is because the same members that are being accused of DJ Biting are trying to save face with a tangent. In this case, it's a tactic to not only try to confuse people, which they think somehow deflects the confrontation they are feeling, but also it's a tactic to try to justify DJ biting in an attempt make similar connections of vile acts in other elements of Hip Hop. These connections do not exist, DJ stealing from other DJs mix is a completely unique phenomenon and irrelevant to all that graph talk. The more that people go into these tangents the more obvious this becomes. As interesting as that discussion of graffiti art is, I ain't falling for it. Don't even keep trying to distract from the real issue by bringing up other elements of either DJing or Hip Hop, it's see through.

I'm still pretty blown away by all of this. I have spent over 100 dollars on a record just for one song for a mix. I did that because the thought of trying to steal it off another DJs final work is so despicable, so discrediting, and utterly incomprehensible. DJs who understand that DJ's mixes are individual unique works of art, respect that art and don't even fathom hurting another DJ. DJs that don't respect that art, aint DJs period. DJ biting aint DJing, its just biting.

It doesn't matter if its a mixtape, or a live mix recorded, if there's a DJ drop, or no drop at all. It doesn't matter it's exclusive and it doesn't exist anywhere else or if it's a dollar bin hit. Twist in a few more factors, none of that matters, its all DJ Biting.

I swear to God I will never download any mix from anyone who supports DJ biting. For all I know I'd be downloading my own mix.

BuddyUK
02-27-2012, 10:42 AM
Quick question to moyo, virtually all the music, films, games etc, that people get/buy there in China is pirated isn't it?


Still shouldn't steal that Dub though :mad:

Sigma
02-27-2012, 10:56 AM
Who is trying to save face with a tangent? I swear you just make shit up and ignore what people are actually saying, LOL. You were the one who brought up artists stealing paint.


I have spent over 100 dollars on a record just for one song for a mix. I did that because the thought of trying to steal it off another DJs final work is so despicable, so discrediting, and utterly incomprehensible.
The thread wasn't about music that's available to buy.

You sound like one of those anti-sampling dinosaurs from Copyright Criminals. The sort of guys that were saying "music is individual works or art, respect that art and don't even fathom hurting another artist by sampling it" - the sort of guys that fucking hate hip-hop and everything it stands for cos it's built on jacking other people's music - very often without permission and without crediting the source - and if you had any hip-hop knowledge other than what you've obtained via osmosis from more knowledgeable heads on OSHH.com, you'd know this already.

rchecka
02-27-2012, 11:11 AM
Who is trying to save face with a tangent? I swear you just make shit up and ignore what people are actually saying, LOL. You were the one who brought up artists stealing paint.


The analogy had nothing whatsoever to do with graffiti and you know that. It was an analogy of paint to an artist. I already told you that your fog machine is malfunctioning, your blue colored fog looks more red today.



The thread wasn't about music that's available to buy.


I already said...

It doesn't matter it's exclusive and it doesn't exist anywhere else or if it's a dollar bin hit. Twist in a few more factors, none of that matters, its all DJ Biting.



You can have the last word on this Sigma, I'm done responding to you, it would be a waste of my time. You ain't gonna change your mind about this, I definitely don't expect to change it.
You decided that being a DJ biter is acceptable, so I (and a bunch of other people that aint talking) lost a ton of respect for you, and I don't expect you to lose any sleep over that either.
Keep trying to save face though, it's entertaining to watch you try with every hail mary pass you keep chuckin' out there.

moyo wilde
02-27-2012, 11:37 AM
@buddy
yeah you would be hard pressed to find non-bootleg stuff when it comes to music, movies, games, software, etc. then again nobody here even buys physical copies anymore. people either download or stream and more and more people are streaming. you used to have dvd/cd bootleg shops and rental stores, now those guys just sell on the streets. they don't make much. a blank cd/dvd costs 1.5, they sell the music/movie/software for 5 once you toss in labor and packaging.

i used to go to hong kong to get cd's, but the hmv i used to go to closed. for most people it really doesn't make sense, actually for me it doesn't. one cd and i could eat, buy cigs and have a couple of beers for two or three days or take a girl out on a date.

with grafitti i would have just felt really stupid if i got caught. i've heard here the first time they just make write a letter or something admitting your offense.

and bassbin is kinda growing on me like a bad fungus, getting an apreciation for not sure what i would do while listening though.

@sig
i hope rcheka sees the irony in his position as a dj and as a fan of hip hop.

@rcheka
on a side note loosen up rcheka, i am not stealing from anyone nor do i have any intention of selling anything.

Dj Real 2009
02-27-2012, 11:42 AM
no drops......If its an ill track...I'm playing it. I'm oldschool....so when these ableton mixtape makers learn how to cut up their so called mixtapes....I'll call it a mixtape...otherwise...Its a free LP or EP to me.

Sigma
02-27-2012, 11:54 AM
An artist stealing paint analogy has nothing whatsoever to do with graffiti? Haha! That analogy fell at the first hurdle.

I'm not trying to save face. My opinion is clear. I said "I'll sample from anywhere" several times and made it as clear as could be, but you responded with "stop trying to save face and back-pedal" like some trolling retard.

I put my mixes out for people to enjoy the music and hopefully, the way I've mixed it. You loved my last mix, but now you found out that I ripped a track from YouTube rather than waiting around and eventually paying $300+ for it you think I'm some poser, haha. You're the fucking poser. You care more about the medium than the music itself.

Here's the dictionary definition of poser: -


to assume a particular attitude or stance, especially with the hope of impressing others
Sounds a bit like the guy who would slap "100% vinyl, no represses!" labels on his mixes, rather than letting the music and skills on the 1s and 2s do the talking.

thehadgi
02-27-2012, 12:02 PM
so I (and a bunch of other people that aint talking) lost a ton of respect for you


Incidently there's also a bunch of people that aint talkin that don't agree with you.

:moon:



:lol:

rchecka
02-27-2012, 12:44 PM
I put my mixes out for people to enjoy the music and hopefully, the way I've mixed it. You loved my last mix, but now you found out that I ripped a track from YouTube rather than waiting around and eventually paying $300+ for it you think I'm some poser, haha. You're the fucking poser. You care more about the medium than the music itself.


Resorting to your 1979 Hip Hop mix again, your defense mechanisms kick into full gear as usual. Pointing out a track you got from youtube that has literally nothing to do with extracting music from a DJs mix. Again, I never said anything negative about 1979, you are tainting your own mix. Is this how you want that mix to be remembered, on a thread about jacking other DJs? I hope so, cuz that's the outcome.

I have about half of the records you put on that 1979 mix by the way, I'm a huge fan of Hip Hop's first recorded year. You asked me for a mp3 of one and I thought that was nice of you to ask. I didn't have that particular record, so I told you honestly and you found it anyway, kudos. It never detracted from the mix then, it still doesn't. But if you took even one song from another DJs mix and called it your own mix then it's tainted. I really hope you didn't do that, that's my favorite mix you ever did.



Sounds a bit like the guy who would slap "100% vinyl, no represses!" labels on his mixes, rather than letting the music and skills on the 1s and 2s do the talking.

That's right, I buy all my music, and I try to by OG pressings when ever possible.
Amazing. So you are trying to turn the table by dissing me for buying my own records for my own mixes and being proud of that enough to rep it on my cover art? You are literally lying on the floor of the boxing ring trying to punch my kneecaps.

If you are referring to Dumpster Funk 2, the music and my mixing speaks for itself. But I guess I should bow my head in shame for buying all original 45 funk records and repping it on the cover art. I should have been willing to jack other DJs, then I coulda got that mix done 5 years earlier. Too bad I wasn't smart enough to just started harvesting songs off of other DJs funk mixes from blogs and DJ Shadow mixes. Unbelievable.

I didn't think you could make it any worse for yourself but your reasoning for justification has failed so badly now, that you have gone past swearing and name calling and are resorting to lashing out at crate digging altogether. I've wasted enough time, there's no point in me going on. Time to sit back now and just let you lie in your own bed that you made.

Sigma
02-27-2012, 01:25 PM
Pointing out a track you got from youtube that has literally nothing to do with extracting music from a DJs mix. Again, I never said anything negative about 1979, you are tainting your own mix. Is this how you want that mix to be remembered, on a thread about jacking other DJs? I hope so, cuz that's the outcome.
It has everything to do with it. I don't care about the source. YouTube or another DJ's mix - it doesn't matter to me.


But if you took even one song from another DJs mix and called it your own mix then it's tainted.
Bullshit. It's still my own mix regardless. Explain to me exactly why it would be different if I cut a track out of a mix (obviously, not including any of the other DJ's mixing/scratching etc.) and fucked with it in my mix, compared to recording it off YouTube and doing the same thing. It's your phoney poser idea of "respect" again, isn't it? Laughable.


That's right, I buy all my music, and I try to by OG pressings when ever possible.
Amazing. So you are trying to turn the table by dissing me for buying my own records for my own mixes and being proud of that enough to rep it on my cover art?
And again, here's the definition of "poser": -


to assume a particular attitude or stance, especially with the hope of impressing others
That describes you, not me. You're the one saying I'm losing respect, therefore I'm clearly not taking any stance in the hope of impressing others. Every mix I posted on here before that 79 one was made with 100% all vinyl. That's several full length mixes and 8 or 9 15-30 minute battle mixes. I didn't feel the need to slap "100% all vinyl!" in the description to try and impress people though.......

DjDisArm
02-27-2012, 01:36 PM
okay check this out... im thinking he was talking about a track like this... for example
like there wont be another version released cause it might just be featured by a no name rapper so he might not be able to hear it anywhere else but the original album which would be 'nothin but slap vol 6' by demolition men :shrug:


http://youtu.be/JtE74QkfkEc

Boomcie
02-27-2012, 02:07 PM
rchecka why is it so hard to understand that the OP is not talking about a dj mix? He's talking about a mixtape from Djs like Dj Drama, DJ Clue, DJ KaySlay, etc....there isn't any actually mixing,scratching or any dj related skills on them. So how is it biting? 98% of the songs on those tapes never see any form of an official release.

Sigma
02-27-2012, 02:12 PM
Cos if you don't have it on vinyl, you're a microwave DJ poser! Just like Jazzy Jeff, DJ Premier, Jazzy Jay, Grandmaster Flash, Craze, Qbert and all those other posers that use DVS these days.

rchecka
02-27-2012, 03:16 PM
rchecka why is it so hard to understand that the OP is not talking about a dj mix? He's talking about a mixtape from Djs like Dj Drama, DJ Clue, DJ KaySlay, etc....there isn't any actually mixing,scratching or any dj related skills on them. So how is it biting? 98% of the songs on those tapes never see any form of an official release.

Is that really what he was asking on the first post or is that what he's asking now after all the initial confrontation? Splitting hairs doesn't change the definition regardless.

All those DJs you mentioned make mixed mixtapes as well as unmixed mixtapes that are more like a compilation of underground rap songs. Either way, you are stealing from another DJ, correct?
Isn't stealing still stealing or is it not stealing if its from an unmixed mixtape? I don't steal anything, but I especially don't steal from other DJs mixtapes (mixed or unmixed) out of mutual respect. Don't mistake stealing for sampling either, we are talking about apples and apples not oranges.

The OP wants the song for his own mixtape, he wants that song to be attached to his name even though it's already attached to another DJs name, is that not true?

He's not talking about taking a snippet of a drum loop and sampling it, he's talking about fronting.

Can a DJ take a song from a compilation of songs? Of course! It's a compilation, it's got the songs uncut, easily mixable, no DJ name drops over it, it's purpose is to be mixed or enjoyed as is. Isn't that what an unmixed mixtape is? HELL NO! A mix, mixtape and unmixed mixtape should be looked at as the final product. Look at the big picture, the entire finished mixtape is that DJs finished art. If you are looking at a mixtape as a few potential songs for your own mixtape, then you obviously don't get that, because you want it so bad you are willing to look past the ethical question. It's not a DJ's palate, it's art that's already on canvas and the paint is already dry. (Please don't talk about grafitti now, come on!)


Lets look at a DJ Mix series called DJ Kicks, as an example, just for argument sake. Where would you draw the line?

Ok, there are 2 versions of this particular DJ Kicks release...


DJ Cam - DJ Kicks (the mixed CD)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jSC4MmcXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


and

DJ Cam - DJ Kicks (the unmixed 2 LP compilation)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jSC4MmcXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Again this is just an example, but there are many like this example. The songs on the mixed CD should be considered OFF LIMITS as material for another DJ mix. The songs on the unmixed compilation are fair play. THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS UNMIXED COMPILATION. Studio K7, paid for the royalties of each song, and as a business decision they decided since they did to make it appeal to DJs, why not give the DJs an unmixed version to mix themselves and a mixed version for DJs to appreciate the way that DJ Cam mixed it.

Personally, I wouldn't buy that compilation for the sole purpose of harvesting it's songs for a mix. If I absolutely must have a song from DJ Cam's mix, and I did take one song from that unmixed compilation, I would say I'm probably not trying hard enough. Would it be acceptable? Sure! Would it be admirable? Ehh, not really when I could just try to find my own style instead of trying to emulate Cam's sound. What if I found the original source would that be better then using the unmixed compilation as a source? Not really, cuz the purpose of that unmixed compilation is for DJs to use to mix. Bottom line, if you use the unmixed compilation you aint jacking a DJ, if you use the mixed compilation that is the definition of DJ Jacking.

Would it be ok to buy that same unmixed compilation for the purpose of recreating the exact same mix DJ Cam did? Err, no that would be blatant style biting unless you were just simply trying to practice mixing like your favorite DJ, this would be biting. It's not hard to draw the line between honor and dishonor.

Unless the DJ made an unmixed mixtape for the sole purpose of selling it to other DJs for them to be able to mix into their own mixes, taking music off it is biting that DJs style and music. This almost never happens because DJs dont want copy cats out there, so there are very few unmixed mixtapes made for that purpose! Think about it. Get your own style, don't jack from other DJs.

It's really not that difficult to distinguish between being a DJ and being a rip off poser ass DJ. Sampling is totally different, and completely unrelated, it confuses the issue by even mentioning it. Bringing it up is a defense mechanism and a shady tactic. I know what sampling is, I know what jacking from another DJ mix is. Every single person in the Hip Hop section should know the difference between DJ Jacking and sampling and that we ain't talking about sampling.

Boomcie
02-27-2012, 04:04 PM
Is that really what he was asking on the first post or is that what he's asking now after all the initial confrontation? Splitting hairs doesn't change the definition regardless.



I understood what the OP meant the first time that I read it.


All those DJs you mentioned make mixed mixtapes as well as unmixed mixtapes that are more like a compilation of underground rap songs.

I've never seen a mixed mixtape from any of those artists. I used to buy all of my mixtapes, but after the government crackdown dj's and artists release them for free, so I download them from www.datpiff.com which is where you go to if you want an official release of a mixtape. Please find me a mixed mixtape from say DJ Drama, I'll even start for you. http://www.datpiff.com/mixtapes-search.php?criteria=dj+drama&x=0&y=0


Either way, you are stealing from another DJ, correct?

How is it stealing from another DJ? They haven't produced, written, or performed any of the songs, hell they haven't even mixed them(as I said earlier). The artists choose the hottest DJs in the streets to host for them because it is FREE promotion.


The OP wants the song for his own mixtape, he wants that song to be attached to his name even though it's already attached to another DJs name, is that not true?

I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as the original dj and artist are credited. I remember when that Biggie and 50Cent track dropped years ago I saw it on some mixtape credited as DJ Whoo Kid ft Biggie and 50Cent(something along those lines)



Can a DJ take a song from a compilation of songs? Of course! It's a compilation, it's got the songs uncut, easily mixable, no DJ name drops over it, it's purpose is to be mixed or enjoyed as is. Isn't that what an unmixed mixtape is? HELL NO! A mix, mixtape and unmixed mixtape should be looked at as the final product. Look at the big picture, the entire finished mixtape is that DJs finished art. If you are looking at a mixtape as a few potential songs for your own mixtape, then you obviously don't get that, because you want it so bad you are willing to look past the ethical question. It's not a DJ's palate, it's art that's already on canvas and the paint is already dry. (Please don't talk about grafitti now, come on!)

Once again you are looking at this as a DJ's work instead of a Promotional Album from an artist. Let's say for example that Illmatic was never released as an official album, but was released to the streets for free with lets say DJ rchecka as the host. The entire album is the same, except that you are speaking on a few tracks and maybe a drop here or there. Other Djs shouldn't be allowed to play any of the tracks because DJ rchecka has his name on the cover and speaks on a few tracks?



Again this is just an example, but there are many like this example. The songs on the mixed CD should be considered OFF LIMITS as material for another DJ mix. The songs on the unmixed compilation are fair play. THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS UNMIXED COMPILATION. Studio K7, paid for the royalties of each song, and as a business decision they decided since they did to make it appeal to DJs, why not give the DJs an unmixed version to mix themselves and a mixed version for DJs to appreciate the way that DJ Cam mixed it.

That's what I've been trying to say all along. The OP wasn't talking about jacking something from some dj's mix. These mixtapes are unmixed. You know the kind of tapes that you made before you were a dj and were trying to get laid, or the type of tape you would make for a road trip?


Unless the DJ made an unmixed mixtape for the sole purpose of selling it to other DJs for them to be able to mix into their own mixes, taking music off it is biting that DJs style and music. This almost never happens because DJs dont want copy cats out there, so there are very few unmixed mixtapes made for that purpose! Think about it. Get your own style, don't jack from other DJs.

:blank: I'm tired of typing.

rchecka
02-27-2012, 05:02 PM
Boomcie, I think you are splitting hairs dude for no reason or gain.
I still make unmixed mixtapes all the time. And I'll add, compiling songs unmixed is also a skill that should be appreciated. I think track progression is an acquired skill, putting songs in the right order, regardless of there being a 2 second gap or not, is also an artform. But come on, that's still not the point anyone is trying to make.

If I made a best of Bob Dylan mix, unmixed, and someone took one song off my unmixed compilation how would I even know it was from my best of Bob compilation??? It's wrong, but I wouldn't know, so it's a non issue.
If by some miracle I somehow did know it was from my specific mix, I honestly wouldn't feel ripped off even if technically I was because that's just pointless, no part of my identity as a DJ is left by that one song being used.
I doubt he'd even want the song if I was dropping something like "Yo this is DJ rchecka, you are listening to Best of Bob!" over the song and if he did take it anyway I'd think he was a moron. Technically it's still biting, stupid biting, but biting nonetheless. Really, what's the point of that? If Bob gave me that song for my exclusive use, or if I paid $250 for a rare one of a kind Bob Dylan acetate, and some fool came along and mixed it into his own mix, I'd be more pissed justifiably cuz he's taking something that made my DJ mix unique regardless of it being mixed or not, it is already is a part of my final art.
If he stole from my tape the very common "Everybody Must Get Stoned" I wouldn't feel like something that made me special as a DJ, something that I earned by collecting it was jacked even though its still technically DJ jacking. It's still DJ Jacking in both cases, right? I don't think it's right in either case, it's just less stupid in one case vs the other.

The line is drawn, now stand on one side of the line or the other. Forget about all the innumerable what ifs, none of that matters if you break it down into the basic act, either way it's one DJ stealing from another DJ. Is it less wrong? Who cares! Less wrong is still wrong, I don't justify any of it.

Steal from an artist and mix it you robbed the artist.
Steal from a DJ's final mix and you robbed the artist, the DJ who mixed it and\or compiled it, and the integrity of DJing altogther.


"Duhh, well what if you took a beeping noise from a mixtape and used it as an echo effect?" STFU, you are wasting everyone's time by going off topic. Nobody is talking about production techniques or sampling, move along.

Sigma
02-27-2012, 05:06 PM
If I made a best of Bob Dylan mix, unmixed, and someone took one song off my unmixed compilation how would I even know it was from my best of Bob compilation??? It's wrong, but I wouldn't know, so it's a non issue.
If by some miracle I somehow did know it was from my specific mix, I honestly wouldn't feel ripped off even if technically I was because that's just pointless, no part of my identity as a DJ is left by that one song being used.
So why do you assume that this wouldn't be the case with something chopped out of a something that was mixed?

You seem to be mad just cos someone would use a song that you used, more than them having jacked it from your mix vs. unmixed piece of work. That's an ego issue that you should really address though. You're blandly mixing 20 songs by other artists and thinking you're Picasso or some shit.

Boomcie
02-27-2012, 05:16 PM
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh fuck it break out the cardboard


http://youtu.be/2vtIXFxfnfU

rchecka
02-27-2012, 06:28 PM
You seem to be mad just cos someone would use a song that you used, more than them having jacked it from your mix vs. unmixed piece of work.

No, I'm mad because there's people out there like you who think they are entitled to everything and anything they hear online for free simply because it's there unless there is a consequence, even if it means taking other DJ's exclusive joints. You think it's ok to jack other DJs and you are a DJ so you are a true hypocrite. Even now you think there is no consequence for taking what isn't yours and calling it yours. In reality, the only consequence is negative rep, not just by me, but by all DJs that really DITC. No one is gonna bust you for ripping off another DJ's song and calling it your own, you'll get off scott-free for that. But don't kid yourself, its an insult to DJs that buy their own music for mixing, and they never are never gonna truly respect you for taking the free and easy road.

Oh, and thanks for killing the record stores that I used to frequent, another direct product of you wanting something for nothing.

Nuff said, now take your medicine like a man. I gotta rest my case some time, my entire Monday is shot, and I blame you for that too.

Sigma
02-28-2012, 03:56 AM
I was buying records when you were still sucking on ya momma's titties boy.

As for your neg rep: -

http://www.digitalvertigo.co.uk/sigma/rep.jpg

Yes, you do keep forgetting to neg rep me - even there - cos you gave me positive rep you mong.


Even now you think there is no consequence for taking what isn't yours and calling it yours.
Oh, the irony. But keep on distributing MP3s of other artists' work without their permission while claiming ownership of the tracks just because you bought them on vinyl. That won't make you look like a hypocrite at all! Bahaha.

rchecka
02-28-2012, 09:29 AM
Yes, you do keep forgetting to neg rep me - even there - cos you gave me positive rep you mong.



Damnit, that sucks.

On top of everything your a buzz kill too.:blank:

Dj Real 2009
02-28-2012, 10:11 AM
hold up...I've been reading posts....You can't put Dj Clue in the list of the so called mixtape dj's. I listed to Dj Clue when he was putting out mixtapes on old TDK Metal cassettes....He was cuttin, and scratching those up. so was doo wop, Kid Capri. Dj Khaled, Haven't seen him on tables yet. Dj Drama....no cuttin and scratchin there. Mick Boogie....All you hear are a bunch of drops and sirens in his mix tapes. You guys need to do your research. Check out Dj Premier's Inside looking out, or Reprogram, or even his salute to James Brown. Sean Price's Kimbo Price Mixtape...which I believe was mixed by PF Cuttin. or.. Rapper Big Pooh's Fat boy Fresh mixed by Dj Flash, and The Purple Tape...mixed by Jayceeoh. Those are mixtapes. I wish some of the artists would just call it what it is...a free EP cause it is not a mixtape. And The Dj's that are not mixing...sorry yall....Your not a real Dj.

Dj Real 2009
02-28-2012, 10:12 AM
And before yall jump on me about not being a real Dj...
I'll beat some of you to the punch. Dj Quick....yes he is a rapper....But I have seen him mix before.

Boomcie
02-28-2012, 11:10 AM
hold up...I've been reading posts....You can't put Dj Clue in the list of the so called mixtape dj's. I listed to Dj Clue when he was putting out mixtapes on old TDK Metal cassettes....He was cuttin, and scratching those up. so was doo wop, Kid Capri. Dj Khaled, Haven't seen him on tables yet. Dj Drama....no cuttin and scratchin there. Mick Boogie....All you hear are a bunch of drops and sirens in his mix tapes. You guys need to do your research. Check out Dj Premier's Inside looking out, or Reprogram, or even his salute to James Brown. Sean Price's Kimbo Price Mixtape...which I believe was mixed by PF Cuttin. or.. Rapper Big Pooh's Fat boy Fresh mixed by Dj Flash, and The Purple Tape...mixed by Jayceeoh. Those are mixtapes. I wish some of the artists would just call it what it is...a free EP cause it is not a mixtape. And The Dj's that are not mixing...sorry yall....Your not a real Dj.

I've never heard a Clue tape with him actually mixing, but I didn't start getting his tapes until 97 or 98. I do have tapes from RonG, DooWop, Kid Capri, with actual mixing.

Yeah Fatboy Fresh is a dope, still gets play on my Ipod

Dj Real 2009
02-28-2012, 11:40 AM
Check out "The Purple Tape" when you have a chance...All Black Milk produced joints using Prince samples.

OG Digga
02-28-2012, 03:32 PM
Read this whole thread.

I agree with rchecka on this one. For me, old school values prevail on mixtapes. I have a ton of records, including quite a few rare/hard to find joints. Mixtapes should reflect the record collection of the DJ. If I wanted to put together a mixtape with a (for example) 1988 Bronx rap theme, it would probably need to include a few rare records. If I was missing a record I needed to complete the mix, I'd buy it for my collection and put it on the mix. If it was a super rare random rap record like Lonnie O or Courageous Chief or whatever, I definitely wouldn't put it on the mix unless I owned it.

Jacking rare songs from the internet to complete a mix is not a good look.

The DJ Ivory Hear No Evil mixes were famous because they had incredible tracklistings that showed off an incredible DJ's incredible record collection... young kids pulling rare shit off the internet get no respect from me.

thehadgi
02-28-2012, 03:48 PM
Read this whole thread.

I agree with rchecka on this one. For me, old school values prevail on mixtapes. I have a ton of records, including quite a few rare/hard to find joints. Mixtapes should reflect the record collection of the DJ. If I wanted to put together a mixtape with a (for example) 1988 Bronx rap theme, it would probably need to include a few rare records. If I was missing a record I needed to complete the mix, I'd buy it for my collection and put it on the mix. If it was a super rare random rap record like Lonnie O or Courageous Chief or whatever, I definitely wouldn't put it on the mix unless I owned it.

Jacking rare songs from the internet to complete a mix is not a good look.

The DJ Ivory Hear No Evil mixes were famous because they had incredible tracklistings that showed off an incredible DJ's incredible record collection... young kids pulling rare shit off the internet get no respect from me.

sounds suspiciously like a troll account...:strokesbeard: :lol:

OG Digga
02-28-2012, 03:58 PM
sounds suspiciously like a troll account...:strokesbeard: :lol:

No troll intended... just my opinion. Like I said, I have old school values. I might be a dinosaur, but that's the way I feel about it. For me, a mix should represent a DJ's record collection. I'm way out of touch with modern DJing though - never used Serato, don't want to know about it.

Sigma
02-28-2012, 04:14 PM
No troll intended... just my opinion. Like I said, I have old school values. I might be a dinosaur, but that's the way I feel about it. For me, a mix should represent a DJ's record collection. I'm way out of touch with modern DJing though - never used Serato, don't want to know about it.
Serato opens lots of doors in terms of creativity.

I can take samples from anywhere and cut them up. In my last mix I started with a sample from a hip-hop documentary where Gary Byrd is talking about how hip-hop started, and I ended with a sample of Grandmaster Flash talking about how hip-hop started in the 70s that I got from a clip on YouTube.

I don't understand the closed-mindedness, especially given that lots of old school pioneers use it - Flash, Jazzy Jay, Jazzy Jeff and so on. That usually leads to people other not replying or saying "yes, but they've paid their dues", but what do you have to do to pay your dues? I bought my first record in 1979 and have been collecting them ever since. I started DJing in the mid-late 80s and up until 2-3 years ago I only used vinyl. People assuming I'm some young kid who's new to this game can eat a dick quite frankly.

rchecka
02-28-2012, 05:01 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RqFkusNNtEA/T00O0FP4QoI/AAAAAAAAAU4/PU4ZNy3hbqc/s1600/Jacking+DJs+101-1.jpg

Blogged it (http://officialperiodic.blogspot.com/2012/02/dj-biting-djs-jackin-djs.html).

OG Digga is repping OG Digging and yall are gonna accuse him of trolling? Figures.
Sigma, you got about as much of a chance of changing his mind as he does changing yours.

Welcome to DJForums OG Digga. Props.

Sigma
02-28-2012, 05:09 PM
How insecure are you? Seriously, LOL.

rchecka
02-28-2012, 05:22 PM
Hahah, you love it.

Hey, there's one yes vote! Hmmm.

thehadgi
02-28-2012, 05:25 PM
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RqFkusNNtEA/T00O0FP4QoI/AAAAAAAAAU4/PU4ZNy3hbqc/s1600/Jacking+DJs+101-1.jpg

I see yours, and raise you one

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9079827/Photos/deadhorse.jpg

rchecka
02-28-2012, 05:35 PM
This is a zombie horse, it'll come back long after it's dead.

moyo wilde
02-28-2012, 09:13 PM
you hear that sigma? OG diga said we are young kids on the internet woohoooo!

i am over 40 as is sigma, i believe. but hey we are young kids using that newfangled technology ruining everything.

@og diga

hip hop first and foremost was/is a guerilla music, with a blatant disregard for the rules of how music was made, how it should sound, who should make it. basically you are saying that those who have access (wealth, location, connections) are the only ones who should be making real hip hop. some ghetto kid in brazil, china, africa, eastern europe has every right to make their art.

i respectfully disagree with you guys.

art is not about kowtowing to anyone or anything except the imperative to create.


EDIT:
side questions to purists:

what do you have against computers, as almost all hop hop is made with computers?

do you see the irony in you making claims against "sampling" from a mixtape and sampling from a band?

do you realize that a lot of musicians make the same argument against djs and hip hop?

how do you know said artist you used is happy with your use of their song in a mix?

the musican that you sampled has worked hard to perfect their art and you come along sample it?
things like getting a drum to sound the way it sounds are that person original work, he took time to tune it that way to learn how tohit it that way and to properly mic it.

what do you do now that a lot of new music is only released as a download/mixtape?

OG Digga
02-29-2012, 01:04 AM
People assuming I'm some young kid who's new to this game can eat a dick quite frankly.

You might be famous round your way, but I've never heard of you.

OG Digga
02-29-2012, 01:09 AM
you hear that sigma? OG diga said we are young kids on the internet woohoooo!

i am over 40 as is sigma, i believe. but hey we are young kids using that newfangled technology ruining everything.

@og diga

hip hop first and foremost was/is a guerilla music, with a blatant disregard for the rules of how music was made, how it should sound, who should make it. basically you are saying that those who have access (wealth, location, connections) are the only ones who should be making real hip hop. some ghetto kid in brazil, china, africa, eastern europe has every right to make their art.

i respectfully disagree with you guys.

art is not about kowtowing to anyone or anything except the imperative to create.





Jacking a track from the internet for a mixtape isn't really 'making music'. It's jacking a track from the internet. Jacking a break from the internet for a beat is 'making music', and I haven't made any comment about that.

Back in the day, hip hop was also about covering the labels of record so other DJs couldn't bite your style. You had to build a deep knowledge of music/breaks for yourself. Like I said, I have old school values.

dlove
02-29-2012, 01:27 AM
Serato opens lots of doors in terms of creativity.

I can take samples from anywhere and cut them up. In my last mix I started with a sample from a hip-hop documentary where Gary Byrd is talking about how hip-hop started, and I ended with a sample of Grandmaster Flash talking about how hip-hop started in the 70s that I got from a clip on YouTube.

I don't understand the closed-mindedness, especially given that lots of old school pioneers use it - Flash, Jazzy Jay, Jazzy Jeff and so on. That usually leads to people other not replying or saying "yes, but they've paid their dues", but what do you have to do to pay your dues? I bought my first record in 1979 and have been collecting them ever since. I started DJing in the mid-late 80s and up until 2-3 years ago I only used vinyl. People assuming I'm some young kid who's new to this game can eat a dick quite frankly.

if I was starting now, with no record collection, I would go for DVS as well. It's the 'norm' now, just like vinyl was (almost still) the norm 10 years ago when I started playing out. If reel to reel was still in play then, I'd never have started DJ'ing.

dlove
02-29-2012, 01:34 AM
Like I said, I have old school values.

I have old school values as well, but I don't push them on other people. The way I see it is, change is the only constant, so I'm just happy that I'm still around, doing my thing.

DjDisArm
02-29-2012, 01:58 AM
I see yours, and raise you one

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9079827/Photos/deadhorse.jpg





:lol:

moyo wilde
02-29-2012, 03:39 AM
Jacking a track from the internet for a mixtape isn't really 'making music'. It's jacking a track from the internet. Jacking a break from the internet for a beat is 'making music', and I haven't made any comment about that.

Back in the day, hip hop was also about covering the labels of record so other DJs couldn't bite your style. You had to build a deep knowledge of music/breaks for yourself. Like I said, I have old school values.

you do understand that sample is to song as song is to mix, right? in addition most musicians feel the same way you feel when they are sampled, looped, etc. like somebody got over didn't have to put in the work they did. or that gigs that used to have a band playing now hire a dj, taking money out of their hands.

and yes i am aware of the covering labels history house dj's did it too. thing is there is no point, technology has made that obsolete. anybody with shazam can find the song or you can just get a few of the lyrics and google the song.

scouring is the new digging it is still hard work and takes time to find quality remixes/edits and new music being made by people in their basements. shoot i usually spend a couple a hours a day looking for new music.

if everything is equal, then all that is left is the dj; his song selection, sequencing, reading the dance floor, and any tricks he can come up with (scratching, juggling, fx, and just clean tight ass mixes). personally i don't fear that, it is a reason to keep pushing harder to get separation from other djs. it also means that you make that remix, edit, song, trick do/play it and when everybody picks up on it you need to get busy with the next thing. in my opnion it can only help to accellerate things.

as a side note i use dvs (no screen watching), cd's, and software/midi. not all at once maybe one day. have some vinyl, but most of it is live instruments and random bits and pieces.


EDIT:
side questions to purists:

what do you have against computers, as almost all hop hop is made with computers?

do you see the irony in you making claims against "sampling" from a mixtape and sampling from a band?

do you realize that a lot of musicians make the same argument against djs and hip hop?

how do you know said artist you used is happy with your use of their song in a mix?

the musican that you sampled has worked hard to perfect their art and you come along sample it?
things like getting a drum to sound the way it sounds are that person original work, he took time to tune it that way to learn how tohit it that way and to properly mic it.

what do you do now that a lot of new music is only released as a download/mixtape?

rchecka
02-29-2012, 07:42 AM
Ok Moyo, now you are just repeating yourself again. You already said all that. As usual, every thing in your side thought bubble is unrelated to this topic. So none of that means anything if you can't stay on point. Show a little respect for the debate. If you feel the need to defend your actions, do so by addressing your original topic.

moyo wilde
02-29-2012, 08:14 AM
first this is my thread if you want to control things go to your thread.

second i am not talking/writing to you.

third, you nor any of the purists have never responded adequately to any of the questions above. you all just say "it is tradition."

i am looking for intelligent debate, if you can't see how it is connected, then maybe that is where there is a problem.

rchecka
02-29-2012, 08:58 AM
It is your thread, go ahead and derail it. It ain't gonna help you make your point though if you ain't talking about DJing.

The Judge
02-29-2012, 06:18 PM
It is your thread, go ahead and derail it. It ain't gonna help you make your point though if you ain't talking about DJing.

And it completely undermines your point to ignore it. It really speaks volumes you consistently fail to address the issue of sampling and how it is relevant to the thread topic. You can say "it's different" all the live long day, but it means diddly squat unless you explain how and differentiate between taking a track from a mix (i.e. a part from a whole). What about lyrics? You call out Jay-Z for biting Biggie lyrics? To deny use of a track from a mix is to deny a fundamental quality of the rap genre. Alluding to sampling/lyrics is simply an allegory; a means by which to illustrate how/why taking a track from a mix can be acceptable in rap/hip-hop. You can't advocate sampling - i.e. taking a part of an artist/producer's work and reusing it - and then disparage taking a track from a mix - i.e. taking a part of a DJ's work and reusing it - just because it's from another DJ. Where is the defining line? Producers sampling rework the sample? Well you and I know there are plenty of tracks out there that are not only good but have had little done to the sample but a little bit of pitching and layering of drums. Or is only some sampling ok? If that's the case, why is some 'biting' not ok? And as if DJs can't rework a track in their mix?

rchecka
03-01-2012, 11:18 AM
It really speaks volumes you consistently fail to address the issue of sampling and how it is relevant to the thread topic. You can say "it's different" all the live long day, but it means diddly squat unless you explain how and differentiate between taking a track from a mix (i.e. a part from a whole).

I think it speaks volumes that a guy who calls himself the Judge is insisting that I defend myself by "explaining" the difference between sampling and DJing on a Hip Hop forum.

I ain't on trial here Judge, I don't have to defend jack, especially when you are trying to defend jacking. I'm not going to insult peoples intelligence by explaining something so fundamental. When I debate with someone on anything, I don't address any irrelevant statements or questions when their sole purpose is to confuse the issue.

Do the math. Add up all the votes and read all the anti-DJs jacking DJ comments on all the threads and then tell me why I gotta explain anything to you. (currently 9 for DJ Jacking and 39 against at all polls)


This first post from Moya...



if you have a nice track but it is on a mixtape what do you do?

pretty much that is my question. what do you guys do if there is a nice track on a mixtape, and only on a mixtape, but the sound quality is iffy? by iffy i mean the recording quality or it isn't a 320 mp3.

do you play it as is? do you play it if it has random drop by dj iiiissssmoooboooob in the middle?



is the issue at hand.

^This has absolutely NOTHING to do with sampling, graffiti, MCing, production tricks, or chainsaw sculpture. It's wasting everyone's time talking about that stuff and you can whine about it all you want, I don't feel even remotely obligated to address irrelevant tangents with people that encourage DJs to steal from another DJs final mix.

jazzyj
03-01-2012, 11:28 AM
Worst word of 2011: "Swag"

Word to kill in 2012: "Volumes" ie... "i think it speaks volumes..blah blah blah blah"

thehadgi
03-01-2012, 11:48 AM
I ain't on trial here Judge, I don't have to defend jack,



Uh yeah you do, you're the one disagreeing with everyone. Plus youre calling people out in schtuff. YOU call someone out; YOU defend yourself

Or you could do everyone a favor and stop acting like a 15 yr old girl and stop posting how you don't care over and over on the interwebz
:moon:

moyo wilde
03-01-2012, 12:02 PM
hey alan stop insulting 15 year old girls. i have known plenty who could put together a better arguement than rchecka.

no pedo



(used to be a teacher)

Boomcie
03-01-2012, 12:21 PM
http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?2751-Before-reacting-to-something-you-read-on-DJF

rchecka
03-01-2012, 12:23 PM
Uh yeah you do, you're the one disagreeing with everyone. Plus youre calling people out in schtuff. YOU call someone out; YOU defend yourself

Or you could do everyone a favor and stop acting like a 15 yr old girl and stop posting how you don't care over and over on the interwebz
:moon:

And you, show a little respect.

You are calling me a 15 year old girl and then you put up an ass smiley.

It's so pointless to acknowledge someone that name calls and says things like you are disagreeing with "everyone". Go ahead and argue with the numbers and then put up another ass smiley.

I don't have to defend real DJs DJing, I already have, so I'll rest my case.

Now that name calling, insults and tangents is the only ammo left from the other side, any comments I made on here after this would be useless.

Sigma
03-01-2012, 01:00 PM
And it completely undermines your point to ignore it. It really speaks volumes you consistently fail to address the issue of sampling and how it is relevant to the thread topic.
Sampling is taking a portion of a sound recording and using it in another sound recording.

rchecka tends to make his own definitions up though, but he is clearly only against sampling when it's based on his definition of what sampling is, and not one that's in the dictionary.

When faced with any kind of point where he has no rebuttal, he resorts to retreating and shouting "it's a simple yes/no question!" when the very discussion he's retreating from proves that not to be the case. He's not interested in objectivity. He wants results that back up his quite obviously frail ego, hence his emotive articles and polls on other sites that play to emotion rather than discussing the topic in any reasonable way. Starting a poll on Diggers With Gratitude is like going to a BNP forum and starting a poll asking whether black and white people are equal. He went there to get the desired result so he could think "I'm right!" and that is what this is actually about.

The question clearly isn't black and white and any well thought out poll would take that into consideration. For instance, he brought up the example of abortion and used this as an example of the kind of poll you might start: -


I could say: Do you think abortion is right?
A. yes
B. no

or I could say:

Do you think abortion is right?
A. always
B. only when a woman is raped
C. never

I could start the poll like that with 10 different answers, but it doesn't have to be confusing if you boil it down to a yes or no. Your either on one side of the fence or the other, if you are in the middle, one leg is gonna hang over the fence more on one side then the other, so you choose that side as your vote.
But this is actually flawed.

If a person is anti-abortion except in cases of rape, if you present them with a poll that only gives them the option to answer yes or no, then that person is more likely to vote no, because on the whole they are anti-abortion except in really specific circumstances and they would think "if I vote yes then I am saying ALL abortion is OK". It's dumbing down a question for the purposes of manipulating the result. Also, the way the poll is presented on his own blog is laughable quite frankly, cos it's like a fundamentalist Christian writing a rant about abortion being murder and then putting an "is abortion OK?" poll at the end. It's going to attract people who vote a certain way and the results are only useful in backing up the author of the piece, but again - that's exactly what this is about for him - propping up his ego. On the old site he had a reputation as a prick because of his combative and aggressive stance on pretty much anything, so it isn't about discussion or education - it's about people saying "you're right!" so he can feel good and that is some poser shit for real.

rchecka
03-01-2012, 05:16 PM
Sampling is taking a portion of a sound recording and using it in another sound recording.

rchecka tends to make his own definitions up though, but he is clearly only against sampling when it's based on his definition of what sampling is, and not one that's in the dictionary.


I didn't say jack about sampling ever. That's pretty bold to claim you know what I think about it.



On the old site he had a reputation as a prick because of his combative and aggressive stance on pretty much anything, so it isn't about discussion or education - it's about people saying "you're right!" so he can feel good and that is some poser shit for real.

Right, and I guess you aint the Sigma at the old DJ Forums Hip Hop section moderator who got fired from the job of moderation for being an utter basket case and abusing his power because his ego got in the way.

Try to maintain a little honor in this debate, you are throwing all kinds of monkey feces right now for no good reason. I disagree with your position here. Leave it at that, and seriously, simmer down.

Let's hear from some new people for a change. Who hasn't chimed in? This thread is getting huge views, somebody else has to be passionate about the subject enough to drop their point of view besides us few.

Sigma
03-01-2012, 06:06 PM
I got "fired" cos I break the rules; swearing, saying I don't give a shit about piracy and what have you. It had absolutely nothing to do with ego nor abusing power - in fact, I was probably the least harsh mod here as I rarely handed out warnings. But I was asked to be a mod in the first place and while I was one, I saw which posts were getting reported and what other mods were saying about the posters whose posts were getting reported regularly, but I'll say no more about that.


Try to maintain a little honor in this debate, you are throwing all kinds of monkey feces right now for no good reason.
What, by calling someone a basket case and saying they got fired as a moderator for abusing power? At least I ain't making shit up.......

jazzyj
03-01-2012, 06:46 PM
I got "fired" cos I break the rules; swearing, saying I don't give a shit about piracy and what have you. It had absolutely nothing to do with ego nor abusing power - in fact, I was probably the least harsh mod here as I rarely handed out warnings. But I was asked to be a mod in the first place and while I was one, I saw which posts were getting reported and what other mods were saying about the posters whose posts were getting reported regularly, but I'll say no more about that.


What, by calling someone a basket case and saying they got fired as a moderator for abusing power? At least I ain't making shit up.......

was the pay good? ;)

Sigma
03-01-2012, 06:53 PM
The job was unpaid, but every Friday night we'd go out and spend all the VIP subscription money on coke and hookers.

jazzyj
03-01-2012, 07:05 PM
The job was unpaid, but every Friday night we'd go out and spend all the VIP subscription money on coke and hookers.

this is why ure my hero!!!!

Stevil
03-01-2012, 07:48 PM
The job was unpaid, but every Friday night we'd go out and spend all the VIP subscription money on coke and hookers.

damnit... why you gotta be telling others about that :P


but seriously, there's are no need for insults from anybody. Lets keep it civil, I don't really enjoy closing threads that aren't spam.

thehadgi
03-01-2012, 08:50 PM
question: can i still moon people

moyo wilde
03-01-2012, 11:22 PM
post is pretty much dead unless someone is willing to engage in thoughtful debate. and from the purist's side there seems to be no amount of reason other than, "it is traditon" and "it is the way it has always been".

and no rchecka you need not respond unless you would like to engage in thoughtful debate.

Jimanee
03-02-2012, 10:37 AM
My personel view on this is that it's wrong to restrict music to people and that one of the primary goals of being a DJ is to bring good music to people.
Being hooked on a song is not a voluntary thing, it's like a drug you got's to have it. That makes the artist and DJs "drug pushers" in a sense and makes this story possible:


Artist/ DJ sitting on track (ADSOT): Hey man check this drug.
DJ/ people (DJP): Ooh man that's lovely where cans I get it.
ADOT: Well you wheren't there in the tiny window of oppertunity in which it was available, so na na na na and I'm not giving it to you because I want to keep it to feel special.
DJP kicks ADOT in the nuts and rips said drug out of his cold dead hands, ADOT lies there crying how he's been bitten.

So if an artist does not make it real easy to buy his track, then that's his lookout.

Tell you another story, I used to play on the UK South African House/ Kwaito scene, primarily because of my then girlfriend, all the best tunes at the time where available from many copied mp3 cds. 90% of the local DJs were playing these, no one cared, majority of the track were mixed and had drops, no one cared.

Do you think those DJs who were getting their drops played over and over again cared????

I tell you now they loved, loved it because they would get big bookings of that, international travel and they knew that there would be a good chance that if the listener had the oppertunity to make a purchase he/ she would.

I actually met that scene's biggest rising star come to England for his first gig, sitting in a flat with his laptop out, sharing shitloads with all the UK DJs sat around him doing the same.


To finally address the OP, since the SA House days I've not bothered with tracks on compiltations or in fact any track of poor quality, because of the decent quality of all my other tracks they just stand out too badly and no individual song is worth that.

rchecka
03-02-2012, 10:51 AM
^I must admit, that was very well put and a great point. I respect that.
I disagree overall, but out of all the cats on here you made the best point for it.
I also agree that a lot of people at a certain venues wouldn't care one way or the other if they are there to just to have fun.

Jaybrown
03-02-2012, 11:42 AM
I'm gonna have to ride on the less popular side of the fence here , and say to leave the song alone. I see it this way , if someone has a track that is exclusive to their mix , and you jack it , it's no different than than if a dj posts their mix and it shows up somewhere else under a different djs name . That track is exclusive to that mix tape for a reason ( that dj put the time and effort into making that track to make his mix tape stand out ) . Everyone else should do the same. Just my opinion... Now if the track is readily available as a stand alone track , then I say , cop that shit and work it into your own mix.

The Judge
03-02-2012, 01:43 PM
post is pretty much dead unless someone is willing to engage in thoughtful debate. and from the purist's side there seems to be no amount of reason other than, "it is traditon" and "it is the way it has always been".

and no rchecka you need not respond unless you would like to engage in thoughtful debate.

This. It's like arguing/debating with a religious fundamentalist unfortunately. Any attempt to use example and analogy is met with claims of irrelevance and biased numbers.

moyo wilde
03-03-2012, 06:10 AM
@jay, the track isn't produced by the dj, it was produced by someone else, a well known producer. to my knowledge the dj didn't do anything other than have access to the song through connections. it isn't a special remix/edit. it is the only copy i have been able to find, datpf/livemix type thing. i also added that i leave tasteful drops in so credit/advert goes to the source.

@yeah pretty much. although oddly/unfortunately i love a good religious debate as well.


oddly, i wouldn't take from a truely "mixed" mixtape/mix. although early on i bought a few tracks individually from beatport and juno that were from a mix. they weren't marked and i think i did a search of some artist and they came up. being as how they were mixed and i didn't have ableton then it was incredibly difficult to mix with bpm changing and too much going on (two or three songs from the song and my song), not to mention my skills were shoddy, so i didn't know why i was having a problem.

OG Digga
03-03-2012, 09:40 AM
I'll make a final point on this thread.

I see myself more as a collector than a DJ now. I still dig, but mostly online. Anyone can access rare records on ebay now - it doesn't matter where you live. I'm not anti-Serato (I can understand the creative possibilities), I just don't have a need for it.

I approach this issue from a 'collector' mindset. I could put together mixes of various genres and themes of records I collect to share the music in the form of a mix. If someone jacked a song from my mix to use it on their own mix, I would be pissed off. I appreciate that I don't 'own' that song, and that the original artist probably appreciates the extra shine. However, you should at least respect where I'm coming from - I found the record, dropped loot on it, and then gave it some shine... all you did was jack it from my mix. The competitive collector in me thinks you took an unacceptable shortcut to get the song for yourself. I'm sure everyone can understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree with me.

To use another example - if I wanted to put together a mix of some niche genre, like Japanese prog or something, I wouldn't have the records to do it. Jacking a load of Japanese prog tracks from YouTube and putting them together into a mix using some software is totally unthinkable to me, but by the logic expressed in this thread, some of you would think this is a completely legitimate thing to do. You'd even give props to the person who did it.

In my opinion, technology has made new things possible, but it hasn't necessarily made them legitimate. I can respect the new approach to doing things, but I don't always agree with it. Taking one song here and there I can live with. Bear one thing in mind - if nobody gave those rare records shine in their own mixes or by posting them on YouTube, you'd have nobody to jack your shit from. I haven't seen anyone pay any respect to the 'purists' who make it possible for you to get your hands on rare music. Some humility wouldn't go amiss.

rchecka
03-03-2012, 09:43 AM
@jay, the track isn't produced by the dj, it was produced by someone else, a well known producer. to my knowledge the dj didn't do anything other than have access to the song through connections. it isn't a special remix/edit. it is the only copy i have been able to find, datpf/livemix type thing. i also added that i leave tasteful drops in so credit/advert goes to the source.

@yeah pretty much. although oddly/unfortunately i love a good religious debate as well.


oddly, i wouldn't take from a truely "mixed" mixtape/mix. although early on i bought a few tracks individually from beatport and juno that were from a mix. they weren't marked and i think i did a search of some artist and they came up. being as how they were mixed and i didn't have ableton then it was incredibly difficult to mix with bpm changing and too much going on (two or three songs from the song and my song), not to mention my skills were shoddy, so i didn't know why i was having a problem.

Christ! What is the name of the song and its source for the love of God. If you would have mentioned that in the beginning no one would have to speculate on any of this. I have no idea why you are being so vague.

By the way I'm not a religious person and thid has never been a religious debate I don't even know what that is all about.

And moyo, unlike you and all the other "yes" voters, I have been engaging in "thoughtful" debate. Only reason I brought up Sigma's hilarious past is because he not only said I was "known for being a prick" but he actually had the audacity to try and diss me for mixing with my own records. I can't even make this shit up.

In stark contrast to all the smoke blowing, along comes Jimanee. Look 2 posts up. I acknowledged and complimented Jimanee for actually addressing the actual topic. He actually talked about DJing instead of all the other horse hockey unrelated distraction tactics. So I addressed his points, they were not only good points but they were on point. I still don't agree but at least he debated honorably without being a genuine defensive ass like the rest of the pro DJ jacking tools on here.

If you don't want me to post on here stop calling me out either by insulting me, name calling, and changing the topic, or trying to diss me for spinning my own music. I don't wanna post on this any more either, I keep saying that, but I got no problem defending myself against genuine stupidity like that.

moyo, you keep posting on here just to respin your web and to add fuel to the fire. Don't post on here any more unless you feel like finally coming clean with the song and source, that is the only thing you can do constructive to this thread. If you would have done that on the first post someone would have helped you find the original source of the damn song and this whole comical trip could have been avoided.

The Judge
03-03-2012, 10:29 AM
What is there to 'get' about the 'religious person' reference? It's an analogy/metaphor to describe how someone is so fundamentally blinded by some school of thought (outdated, fanciful or not) that they will not listen to rhyme nor reason and when questioned turn to the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming 'lalalalalalala'.

What did Jimanee really say that's so special here? (Not that I am denigrating his comment in any way.) He basically fed into your notion of purity. He essentially argued that DJs should bring music to the people and that they are 'pushers' of sorts. I posited similar in a different way -


Let's put a hypothetical out there - Biggie decides not to put Hypnotize on Life After Death (couldn't clear the sample). After Biggie dies, Funk Flex finds a recording of it and puts it on one of his mixtapes. Funk makes 50 copies of the mixtape because he's fat and lazy. Is that it? 50 copies of Hypnotize in existence? You can't mix the track into one of your own mixes and have the ears of however many hundreds/thousands hear a classic?

You just replied with "It doesn't matter it's exclusive and it doesn't exist anywhere else or if it's a dollar bin hit. Twist in a few more factors, none of that matters, its all DJ Biting." Basically it's unacceptable.

Then he just said that some DJs wouldn't care and you agreed that some wouldn't. But it's besides the point - biting's biting to you whether a DJ cares or not, by the sounds of things.

The only reason I can guess why you preferred his post is because he didn't address you directly.

Regardless, the issue of sampling/graf might seem irrelevant to you but it's really not. You don't look at DJing in some kind of myopic fashion; you look at it as a whole, within the hip-hop/rap genre, a genre steeped in the use of other people's work with or without their permission (a lot of the time without). The question every is dying to know is "why is sampling (i.e. taking a portion of a sound recording and using it in another sound recording as Sigma put it simply) acceptable but 'DJ biting' (i.e. taking a portion of a sound recording and using it in another sound recording....) not?". The concept is the same.

rchecka
03-03-2012, 11:10 AM
Ok Judge, you win. You wore me down, Ill address sampling even though it is definitely not even remotely the "same concept" as DJing. They are 2 totally separate artforms.

The entire POINT of sampling is to "steal" music from an original piece of music for the sole purpose of recycling and creating a new piece of music.

The point of DJing has NEVER EVER been about stealing, its point is to promote music and in the clubs its point is to make people dance and have a good time.

There are laws in place to protect the sampled musician and the sampling producer. Hip Hop would not exist as we know it without the art of sampling. Yet, the musicians who are chosen to be sampled legally have the right to refuse the sample release. Their intellectual property is protected by this law, so in a way, the artform itself is protected.

There is no such protection for a DJ. There shouldnt have to be either because other DJs should respect their own kind and find their own source. That mutual respect is what has been self governing DJing for years (until now) and therefore there is no need for such a law. Without that mutual respect, creativity and originality dies, and consequently so does the art of Djing. The day that it becomes universally ok for DJs to steal from another DJs final mix is the day when DJing is no longer an art or a skill. If its free and easy, and even my 8 year old son can do it, its hardly worth celebrating.

moyo wilde
03-03-2012, 12:09 PM
first if you would reread what you have written you would realize that you have insulted me as well as everyone else who says it is okay. throughout both posts i have made fun of you, yes, but i don't recall ever once insulting you. in addition in my honest opinion your personal attack on sigma on a situation that you didn't have enough information about and was not germane to the discussion was distastful to say the least.

second go back and read the questions i asked, judge as well as others have already pointed out that there is a logical connection between the discussion and the questions. the point of the questions is to show that in one aspect (hip hop) you are perfectly willing to accept the same behavior but in another situation, which is exactly the same, you are unwilling to accept the behavior. the point is to show that while you think of it as logical/a truth it isn't and in fact your own thinking proves it.

@ogdiga your position is understandable. as a person who owns vinyl myself though, it is enough for me to know that i have the song on vinyl. i don't really care who else has it. if that were the case everytime i saw a song that i had on vynil go on sale as a download i would feel something, i don't think that as far as mixes etc go i judge them more on how they sound and less on what/how they were made. if it is good it is good, yes i would be more impressed by a mix made with strictly vinyl over the same mix made with software, but in my opinion it wouldn't make the mix made in software with bootlegs any less valid/good.

rchecka
03-03-2012, 12:39 PM
...but i don't recall ever once insulting you.


hey alan stop insulting 15 year old girls. i have known plenty who could put together a better arguement than rchecka.

no pedo




in addition in my honest opinion your personal attack on sigma on a situation that you didn't have enough information about and was not germane to the discussion was distastful to say the least.


Sigma went there, so I went there, water under the bridge.

I take it you still aren't ready to name the song moyo. Let the cat out of the bag, and it better be the dopest song I ever heard.

thehadgi
03-03-2012, 01:12 PM
There are laws in place to protect the sampled musician and the sampling producer. Hip Hop would not exist as we know it without the art of sampling. Yet, the musicians who are chosen to be sampled legally have the right to refuse the sample release. Their intellectual property is protected by this law, so in a way, the artform itself is protected.

There is no such protection for a DJ. There shouldnt have to be either because other DJs should respect their own kind and find their own source. That mutual respect is what has been self governing DJing for years (until now) and therefore there is no need for such a law. Without that mutual respect, creativity and originality dies, and consequently so does the art of Djing. The day that it becomes universally ok for DJs to steal from another DJs final mix is the day when DJing is no longer an art or a skill. If its free and easy, and even my 8 year old son can do it, its hardly worth celebrating.

1. There aren't laws protecting Dj's because DJ's aren't creating anything. A mix is not an original song, it's a mix. You can copyright a concrete song and acoustic waveform or whatever. You can't copyright a style of DJ'ing. THAT's why there are no laws, not your supposed 'mutual respect' that has 'always' been in place before now.

2. You contradict yourself. Creativity and originality dies because of people with the mindset of yourself who limit people from making mixes because they don't have incredible resources to track down some obscure track. You want ultimate freedom and creativity? Let DJ's 'bite' whenever they want. Creativity flourishes in places without limits; places where you don't have to obey some 'moral' code where you're not allowed to get inspiration from a mix you like.

And there is a good chance your 8 year old song could DJ. Or paint. Or draw. Or do anything else. But that doesn't mean the entire field is no longer an art or skill because someone can be adequate at it. I think it'd be better if technology got to the point where it does get easier and easier (which it is) because that means more amazing things CAN be done. And WILL be done, as we've already seen. But with you wanting to limit people by some arbitrary ethics code, THAT's stifling creativity.

Also, moyo's track in question doesn't even matter at this point, we're far past that

dlove
03-03-2012, 01:20 PM
the technology is a means to an end, not an end in itself :tup:

rchecka
03-03-2012, 01:37 PM
1. There aren't laws protecting Dj's because DJ's aren't creating anything.

I can't even read past this.

rchecka
03-03-2012, 01:38 PM
Moyo, just name the song, please. The curiosity is killing me.

Boomcie
03-03-2012, 02:38 PM
rchecka why is it so hard to understand that the OP is not talking about a dj mix? He's talking about a mixtape from Djs like Dj Drama, DJ Clue, DJ KaySlay, etc....there isn't any actually mixing,scratching or any dj related skills on them. So how is it biting? 98% of the songs on those tapes never see any form of an official release.

Thread could have ended here.

The Judge
03-03-2012, 08:26 PM
Ok Judge, you win. You wore me down, Ill address sampling even though it is definitely not even remotely the "same concept" as DJing. They are 2 totally separate artforms.

The entire POINT of sampling is to "steal" music from an original piece of music for the sole purpose of recycling and creating a new piece of music.

The point of DJing has NEVER EVER been about stealing, its point is to promote music and in the clubs its point is to make people dance and have a good time.

There are laws in place to protect the sampled musician and the sampling producer. Hip Hop would not exist as we know it without the art of sampling. Yet, the musicians who are chosen to be sampled legally have the right to refuse the sample release. Their intellectual property is protected by this law, so in a way, the artform itself is protected.

There is no such protection for a DJ. There shouldnt have to be either because other DJs should respect their own kind and find their own source. That mutual respect is what has been self governing DJing for years (until now) and therefore there is no need for such a law. Without that mutual respect, creativity and originality dies, and consequently so does the art of Djing. The day that it becomes universally ok for DJs to steal from another DJs final mix is the day when DJing is no longer an art or a skill. If its free and easy, and even my 8 year old son can do it, its hardly worth celebrating.

A skewed definition again, dude. For one thing, it's not 'stealing'. The producer isn't depriving the original copyright holder of anything. For another thing, you can just as easily say that sampling is about creating a great track for people to dance to and enjoy, promoting the producer's own work and potentially the sample copyright holder's too. And you also act like all samples are cleared - that is patently not the case. There is no respect for other artist's work - producers pretty much only clear samples because they know they'll get screwed if they're found out. So only legit sampling is ok? Are we getting a bit closer to a defining line here? If that's the case, then legit 'biting' should be ok. Ask a DJ to use one of his tracks and you're good to go.

DJs make use of the copyrighted works of other artists/producers. Not stealing no, but neither is sampling. Also, DJs are protected under copyright laws. A mix/mixtape etc. is a derivative work; they will hold copyright on track selection/order, scratching etc. but not over the original copyrighted work (i.e. the tracks). They have done nothing to deserve copyright in the tracks - they 'merely' found them (not to say that finding/discovering a good track doesn't require work/effort though).

But this is not a legal issue; it is a moral/ethical one. Why should a DJ be able to stop someone from playing a track he didn't create? It's not his spiritual child. Furthermore, if DJing is about promoting music and making people dance, as you say, why do DJs care if someone helps break a track more? It's just an ego thing then if they care. In which case, as long as you attribute the track to whoever found it first/had the exclusive then there really shouldn't be an issue. May feel a bit aggrieved but frankly, tough noogie - you don't own the track. This issue has never been a case of passing off a track as one you found.

If DJing is about promoting music though, this whole debate has been null and void - 'biting' is ok under that ambit.

Sigma
03-04-2012, 05:53 PM
That whole sampling law argument is bogus. Once hip-hop artists started getting hit with lawsuits and crazy fees were involved to clear samples, the music changed for the worse. Chuck D has said in interviews that P.E. had to change their whole sound because of it, for example. Had today's laws and sample clearance fees always existed, there would be no It Takes A Nation of Millions...

The arguments of "legitimacy" and "right and wrong" in this thread are kinda like those put forth by religious extremists, but you have no Bible to quote from. Instead you say "it just is like this!", cos any time you try and explain it your arguments fall flat. If DJing is about "promoting music" then you wouldn't care about any of this. You're trying to draw a parallel between sampling and paying fees to clear samples and some unwritten rule amongst DJs, but those attitudes towards sampling and the laws that sprung up around it are part of what made hip-hop worse, so that's not a good comparison to use at all. Besides, by buying a record, using a portion of it in a mix, then distributing that mix online for free, you are breaking the very rules you are trying to lay down. You don't own the rights to a song cos you bought the vinyl, otherwise a hip-hop producer could say "but I bought it on wax!" when the lawyers come sniffing for their sample clearance fees.

As for the art of DJing, the art of hip-hop DJing has been dying a slow death for years. You've got hip-hop DJs now that can't even scratch or do the most basic of trick mixing. If it's only about music discovery, then I could give all 20 records I used in one of my past mixes to an 8 year old kid and say "here, make a mix with these" and whatever they come up with should be as good as what I've made. Look at the argument on the last page about someone making a mix of Japanese prog rock by ripping the tracks off YouTube videos - that would automatically make the mix wack, yet if a person discovered all of the tracks via YouTube and went on Discogs and bought the lot for £20 used and then made a mix - that's fine! They have the vinyl, so that somehow legitimises the piece of art they created, much like paying a fee to clear a sample legitimises a hip-hop track......... but then again..........

I think you have to be careful with the kind of slippery slope arguments being made in this thread. I am saying "if the circumstances dictate it, I'll take from anywhere", but that's being portrayed as if I would make every mix by just listening to other DJs and saying "I'll take this track from this mix, and this track from this mix" and so on. That isn't how shit works. Who is doing that? Who would even want to do that? I have never cut anything out of another DJ's mix for use in my own work, but I am saying that if I felt that I had to, I would.


Taking one song here and there I can live with.
Hmmmmm.........

Hamza21
03-04-2012, 10:01 PM
It's extremely rare that a track is only available on some other DJ's mixtape.

Whether I would play it or not depends on the circumstances. If it had another DJ's drop over it then I wouldn't play it. If the sound quality was pretty poor I may include it in a mixtape of my own if there was a good reason to, but I wouldn't play it out live. If the sound quality is good and there are no drops, or I can edit them out, then I would play the track live if there was no other way to get it.

I didn't read all pages in this thread but I agree with Sigma. I jacked Heaven seeds of Blackness by Nas from a mixtape and added to one my mixes (Here (http://www.mixcrate.com/mix/114313/The-Dynamic-Hamza-21-True-School-Beatdown-Volume-Six) since I couldn't find anywhere else. The into had a drop but the outro was left untouched. So I made intro out of the outro. Other that time I can't remember hearing a song on mix I couldn't find and I listen to alot of mixes!