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View Full Version : So who's going to get one of those Behringer modular controllers?



punky
02-21-2012, 01:31 PM
I think I might get a few and build my perfect Traktor rig out of it. Anyone else?

Defiance
02-21-2012, 01:58 PM
I took a look at it, pretty neat. Can't believe it hasn't been done before this...

punky
02-21-2012, 02:01 PM
Takes a lot of balls to buck the trend. If you look at most of the DJ controller market, they started with two channels... then went to four channels... now are going back to two channels.... not a lot of original thought there. And I can appreciate why that is - when people's livelihoods are depending on the success of a product, it's hard to take a risk.

mrkleen
02-21-2012, 02:24 PM
I would NEVER stand up in front of a room full of people at an important gig and put my performance in the hands of shit, knock off company like Behringer. No way, no thanks.

punky
02-21-2012, 02:31 PM
I've actually spoken to nem0nic, who was the product developer for the CMDs. He (and Behringer) are fully aware of Behringer's PR problem and (well-deserved) reputation for being shitty on DJ gear. I think this was a first step to turn their reputation around, similar to how Numark has done so.

Divercity
02-21-2012, 02:38 PM
Behringer?

Maybe not.

mrkleen
02-21-2012, 02:45 PM
I think this was a first step to turn their reputation around, similar to how Numark has done so.

If all they are shooting for is to be the Numark of the industry - that isnt saying much.

punky
02-21-2012, 02:51 PM
Touche. To be fair though, Numark has done a LOT in terms of improving their build quality of their products. The NS7 and NS6 are decent products, and I'm willing to bet the N4 will be as well. A lot of the designs we all saw at NAMM this year were kind of stupid (the Traktor controller and the UGH NS6 MPC thing) but from what I can tell, Numark doesn't elicit the same kind of shrieks of horror that it used to. There's a fair amount of droolage over the NS7, even now, years after its release.

nem0nic
02-21-2012, 04:53 PM
If all they are shooting for is to be the Numark of the industry - that isnt saying much.
All we're "shooting for" is making good gear. This year's releases are the start of that.

That said, your statement is kind of stupid. Whether you like them or not, Numark has been a highly successful company in DJ MI. Their products represent almost 40% of dollar sales and 50% of unit sales in the US. Numark's sales are stronger than any 3 other company's US sales COMBINED. I think that as a business, that's a pretty decent target to have. I would LOVE to have close to half the market.

punky
02-21-2012, 06:55 PM
Also, Behringer MIDI gear has always been a different story from their DJ gear. The FCB1010 has a fanatical following and the BCF and BCR have a great reputation as solid pieces of gear. I'm guessing that the CMD units will follow suit.

More on topic: I like how it lets me customize a setup to my needs. I think I may get a platter unit, 4 channel mixer unit, that DVS FX unit thing, and either that 16 pad drum thing or the 4x8 Ableton style thing for Traktor's new remix decks.

l0ckd0wn
02-21-2012, 09:27 PM
I don't know what people are complaining about... I'm very excited to see these hit market. I don't foresee myself having a use for them right now, but at 150 a pop they are at a good price point and allow for a LOT of flexibility.

Interracial Tea
02-21-2012, 11:00 PM
I would really love to try out the CMD DC-1. It seems perfect for what I want to do. Drum pad buttons for cues, knobs for effects, and more buttons for more control within Serato. What's also super great is the price point. This is supposed to be what, $100? That's fucking awesome for a controller. The only thing that bugs me is the name. For whatever reason, I just can't remember Behringer CMD DC-1.


LET ME REVIEW ONE FOR DJF!!!!!!!!!111

DJNR
02-21-2012, 11:13 PM
I would really love to try out the CMD DC-1. It seems perfect for what I want to do. Drum pad buttons for cues, knobs for effects, and more buttons for more control within Serato. What's also super great is the price point. This is supposed to be what, $100? That's fucking awesome for a controller. The only thing that bugs me is the name. For whatever reason, I just can't remember Behringer CMD DC-1.


LET ME REVIEW ONE FOR DJF!!!!!!!!!111

!!!!!!!!!11111oneoneoneone. :D

nem0nic
02-22-2012, 12:56 AM
On the DC-1, the top navigation section is money as well. Now that I've started using it, I hate when I don't have it around.

popong
02-22-2012, 01:26 AM
pretty neat addition to a S4 setup :tup:

Phil Noize
02-22-2012, 05:29 AM
I don't know what people are complaining about... I'm very excited to see these hit market. I don't foresee myself having a use for them right now, but at 150 a pop they are at a good price point and allow for a LOT of flexibility.

+1 I agree!

punky
02-22-2012, 08:47 AM
On the DC-1, the top navigation section is money as well. Now that I've started using it, I hate when I don't have it around.

I've never had it, and I am completely fucking champing at the bit for it. I'm so sick of my mouse and keyboard for that.

Gjhowe1
02-22-2012, 01:59 PM
These things actually look cool for their cost, and seam to be a step up from some of the previous Behringer items. I really like the look of the DC-1 and LC-1 for sample triggers.

I don't get whats up with all the Behringer hate, yes they make lower quality products when compared to say native instruments, but for people who are just starting out and don't have 800 bucks to drop on an S4 they offer a decent solution IMO.

Defiance
02-22-2012, 02:02 PM
I looked at them to an addition to my 'four deck' controller so but now with the NS6 its unnecessary . I certainly wished the decks had something larger than a quarter for a job wheel though...

mrkleen
02-22-2012, 02:25 PM
All we're "shooting for" is making good gear. This year's releases are the start of that.

That said, your statement is kind of stupid. Whether you like them or not, Numark has been a highly successful company in DJ MI. Their products represent almost 40% of dollar sales and 50% of unit sales in the US. Numark's sales are stronger than any 3 other company's US sales COMBINED. I think that as a business, that's a pretty decent target to have. I would LOVE to have close to half the market.

Numark might ship more units - and at their price point, they would have to. But are you telling us that Numark does more in revenue than Pioneer? I highly doubt that.

Numark is a mobile DJ - bottom of the barrel, entry level DJ company and has been for 20 years. You will not find them in any clubs, and very few DJs beyond frat party DJs and Joe Blow at your local VFW hall is using their gear.

Do they make money...sure. And if that is what you guys are shooting for, making passable gear that sells for a few months - good for you. Just when I hear someone say they are "reinventing" their image - I think of shooting higher than waist high...thats all.

mrkleen
02-22-2012, 02:30 PM
I don't know what people are complaining about... I'm very excited to see these hit market. I don't foresee myself having a use for them right now, but at 150 a pop they are at a good price point and allow for a LOT of flexibility.

You take a piece of untested gear from a company with a poor track record out in front of 1000 people at a show - and when it fails, you tell me WHO will be complaining?

I am not knocking Behringer for trying to rework their image. But it is going to take more than Punky and Nemonic "saying so" to prove their reliability has improved.

MeowMix
02-22-2012, 02:38 PM
If i ever get rid of my MC6000 id probably go with a mixer + modular setup of either these Behringers or K2s.

punky
02-22-2012, 02:39 PM
All the important giblets are around the waist level though!

In all seriousness, Numark absolutely moves more than Pioneer. Pioneer has actually been looking to offload their DJ division for a while but no one's buying. I've seen a few Pioneer decks at clubs and such, but I've actually seen way more Numark mixers and other units in the wild.

What you're not realizing is this: most of the market is frat party DJs and Joe Blow at the VFW hall. You, me, Nem, and most of the big muckety mucks on this forum are like... top 10 percenters. We're insane about our gear. Most people just want it to a) work and b) be cheap. They make due with setups that would make you and I blanch with horror.

EDIT: As a side note, "You won't find it in a club!" isn't really a legitimate problem anymore. You won't find an S4 permanently installed in a club booth either. So what?

The whole idea of a "DJ industry standard" like the DJM-800, Technics, CDJ-1000s, etc. is basically going the way of the dodo as a concept as DJs embrace controllers and their own individual workflows. And I'm sure club owners are thrilled, because that's a bunch of gear they no longer have to provide / maintain. All they need is some kind of XLR, TRS, or even RCA input somewhere for the DJ.

If you want to complain about build quality, and you're using the "you won't find it in a club" as a way of expressing that, then yes, there's a legit thing we can talk about. Behringer has issues with that. But the fact that something isn't "industry standard" isn't really a legit complaint anymore. There is really no industry standard anymore.

punky
02-22-2012, 02:41 PM
You take a piece of untested gear from a company with a poor track record out in front of 1000 people at a show - and when it fails, you tell me WHO will be complaining?

I am not knocking Behringer for trying to rework their image. But it is going to take more than Punky and Nemonic "saying so" to prove their reliability has improved.

Sure. That's a BIG fucking hill to get over. Go back and read my posts - I never claimed that everything was peachy keen now. I said they were *trying* to improve their DJ image, and I also noted that their MIDI gear outside of their DJ stuff has always had a pretty good reputation.

nem0nic
02-22-2012, 04:57 PM
Numark might ship more units - and at their price point, they would have to. But are you telling us that Numark does more in revenue than Pioneer? I highly doubt that.

Numark is a mobile DJ - bottom of the barrel, entry level DJ company and has been for 20 years. You will not find them in any clubs, and very few DJs beyond frat party DJs and Joe Blow at your local VFW hall is using their gear.

Do they make money...sure. And if that is what you guys are shooting for, making passable gear that sells for a few months - good for you. Just when I hear someone say they are "reinventing" their image - I think of shooting higher than waist high...thats all.

Yes, Numark in a given month generates close to double what Pioneer DJ does. That actually ramps up even higher during the holidays. Since early 2007, Pioneer has only managed to top Numark's monthly sales 7 times. And this makes total sense. There are more beginner DJs than "expert" DJs, and beginners and hobbyists can't typically rationalize spending several thousand dollars on gear. So the market is bigger, and Numark has identified and catered VERY EFFECTIVELY to that market. This is a solid business strategy, and Numark has grown substantially because of it.

So as a business, if you're asking me if I would rather have Pioneer's sales or Numark's, I would say it's pretty obviously Numark's. Personally, I WANT Joe Blow bedroom DJ buying my gear. There are way more of Joe Blow than James Zabelia. And Job Blow doesn't have the disposable income to buy whatever boutique product they need to fill a particular niche.

If CMD proves successful, generates some new income for the company, and proves that DJ can be a much bigger segment of our sales than it currently is, THEN we'll look at the next steps.

Will MaXimal
02-22-2012, 07:12 PM
I would NEVER stand up in front of a room full of people at an important gig and put my performance in the hands of shit, knock off company like Behringer. No way, no thanks.

I have used Behringer amps for years and never had a probelm. They are actually just as good as my old Crown amps.

Will MaXimal
02-22-2012, 07:21 PM
I also have to say that some of the companies like Pioneeer arent really all that better than other companies... I mean search in youtube for "Tiesto fail" or CDJ fail and there are a few videos of top name djs having the so called "Industry Standard" hardware stopping a show.

Look at Rane and how long it took for them to release a new piece of Hardware for scratch live... They make a big deal about releasing things that have already been done same with pioneer.

In terms of innovation, its the underdog companies that are really pushing the boundries. People are so quick to put something in a box without having no knowledge about the actual product... they just repeat what other idiots have heard but with nothing to really back it.


Simple truth is Behringer has been making quality products for a while now both in the studio and at 500+ events and never had an issue. I am glad to see Behringer stepping up their line and having used these controllers personally i can vouch for them.

DJNR
02-22-2012, 07:26 PM
I am actually excited for the controllers. I have heard about Behringers notoriety for making "iffy" equipment, but I played on a DDM4000 for awhile and I had no problems with it; actually, I thought it was really fun.

I think the price point for the controllers is really quite fair, and if they do fail on me for whatever reason, at least I will be happy to know I didn't spend a ton of money on them.

Will MaXimal
02-22-2012, 07:50 PM
I am actually excited for the controllers. I have heard about Behringers notoriety for making "iffy" equipment, but I played on a DDM4000 for awhile and I had no problems with it; actually, I thought it was really fun.

I think the price point for the controllers is really quite fair, and if they do fail on me for whatever reason, at least I will be happy to know I didn't spend a ton of money on them.

The thing you have to remember is that in any industry you have different brackets in who you market too. When it comes to Dj equipment, Behringer just markets to a different demographic than people looking for a serious big club installation.

One amature mistake is to get this concept confused with quality. I mean, who here has not bought something for a big chunk of money only to have it break or malfunction? In the world of Dj gear just because something is cheap does not mean its inferior. The quality might not be as good in terms of things like sound reproduction and the parts used might not be as fancy as some $1000 dollar controller.

But the fact is again you cant label a company inferior just because the people they market too are in a different bracket. These controllers, like other Behringer products are very solid and innovative. It wont be long now until you see controllers like these in every setup.

punky
02-22-2012, 07:57 PM
I'll bet any amount of money that if the CMDs are successful, we will see other more reputable companies copying them.

DJStevieRay
02-22-2012, 08:38 PM
I have been afraid of any purchases of a Behringer product since the poor rip off, and poor reliability of the DJM700. They have had a few successes along the way (Truth monitors). But overall I have never purchased a Behringer product, although these products look pretty promising, I am still skeptical, until other users try them, and say they are the greatest thing since Wonder Bread. PS. They are not the first company with modular controllers, DJ Tech has been doing it for a few years, just not as aggressively, with as much diversity of this Behringer lineup.

mrkleen
02-22-2012, 09:23 PM
I have used Behringer amps for years and never had a probelm. They are actually just as good as my old Crown amps.

Did you just tell us the Behringer Amps are as reliable as Crown Amps? LOL. OK.

punky
02-22-2012, 10:46 PM
He's talking about his experience, which is hardly invalidated by your snark.

Look, Kleen, I respect you. You're a long time member of the forum, and your opinions are valid, but we want to talk about these controllers. We're excited by them. We want to reserve judgment and check them out. We understand all the baggage that Behringer products bring with them. I don't think there's anyone here who isn't vaguely sketched out by Behringer. So if you're trying to warn us, it's unnecessary - we know.

At this point, you're basically threadcrapping, and I don't see how what you're doing adds something positive to the thread. If you want to put up another thread, talking about how awful and unreliable Behringer products are, great! Go for it! But let us do what we really want to do. Cool?

k4hn
02-22-2012, 11:49 PM
...PS. They are not the first company with modular controllers, DJ Tech has been doing it for a few years, just not as aggressively, with as much diversity of this Behringer lineup.

And don't forget Faderfox too, they've made and continue to make some great modular midi units with awesome build quality (or so it appears.) They're just more boutique and thus expensive. I admit, it is nice to see a brand with the economies of scale that Behringer has to churn out units like these.

Nicadraus
02-23-2012, 01:29 AM
I'm actually considering the DVS-1. I'll have to try and feel the buttons first.

@nemonic: Are the buttons gel-rubber type or plastic?

a-mart
02-23-2012, 02:01 AM
If all they are shooting for is to be the Numark of the industry - that isnt saying much.

You can't tell me that Numark hasn't turned their shit around starting with the NS7, moving to the NS6 and etc.

DJNR
02-23-2012, 02:19 AM
NS7 was damn solid..

a-mart
02-23-2012, 03:09 AM
I played on an NS7 once and absolutely loved it. Probably going to pick up an ns6 in the near future.

antFastic
02-23-2012, 06:59 AM
You take a piece of untested gear from a company with a poor track record out in front of 1000 people at a show - and when it fails, you tell me WHO will be complaining?

I am not knocking Behringer for trying to rework their image. But it is going to take more than Punky and Nemonic "saying so" to prove their reliability has improved.

http://broken-line.de/pvbb/news_pics/pyramid_daft_punk.jpg ? I know nothing about this particular set up or how it was used so it may or may not be a good example.

I dunno, sure Behringer have put out some bad products but it's not all knock off and it's not all crap. If you purchase something, like it and find it to be reliable then why not use it? Especially with MIDI equipment, where sound quality doesn't even come into the equation. And as others have said, from the entire market for music related equipment in general, how many actually perform to 1000 people? Some people just want to have fun, there will always be a market for budget gear and Behringer are providing.

The new controllers look OK to me, kinda reminds me of that competition we had a while back, with all those cool designs people sent in?

punky
02-23-2012, 08:34 AM
What kind of mappings do people have in mind?

I'm thinking that the CMD DVS controller might be one of the most fun to map. I know the obvious impulse is to use the A, B, C, and D buttons as deck focuses, but I think it might also be cool if I set each button to a MIDI modifier, and it changed what the entire controller did.

Like, say, A would be the bog standard FX, B would be super knobs, C could be sample decks, and D could be some kind of weird catchall.

nem0nic
02-23-2012, 09:07 AM
@nemonic: Are the buttons gel-rubber type or plastic?
Looks like they're going to be plastic with tact switches. Right now, this combination is delivering the best response for cost.


I know the obvious impulse is to use the A, B, C, and D buttons as deck focuses, but I think it might also be cool if I set each button to a MIDI modifier, and it changed what the entire controller did.
On the DV-1, the A/B/C/D buttons are modified by the 3 buttons underneath them. So if the FOCUS button is lit, the buttons will send (for example) 1/2/3/4. If the MASTER button is lit, they send 5/6/7/8. And if the DOUBLES button is lit they send 9/10/11/12. So the controller isn't flat - there's some modality there.

The FX sections work the same way. On each FX section, the output messages for the 4 knobs and buttons in that section are modified by the FX1/FX2/FX3/FX4 buttons above it.

So you have way more messaging available already on the DV-1 then you might realize. And the logic is built into the controllers, so there's no middleware keeping track of messaging and LED feedback variables. It all happens without the user needing to do (or run) anything.

punky
02-23-2012, 09:38 AM
Huh. That is VERY interesting! Do the 3 buttons under the ABCD buttons send their own MIDI messages, and does their LED feedback respond to MIDI output?

Will MaXimal
02-23-2012, 02:37 PM
Did you just tell us the Behringer Amps are as reliable as Crown Amps? LOL. OK.

Well, i have owned and used both for years so i am pretty sure i know what the fuck i am talking about and to be honest all you have been doing is regurgitating the same useless nonsense that people like you tend to spread around without knowing what the hell you are actually talking about.

For someone who makes such accusations you have yet to really show us what your qualifications are to be offering up any sort of opinion :teef:

nem0nic
02-23-2012, 03:24 PM
Huh. That is VERY interesting! Do the 3 buttons under the ABCD buttons send their own MIDI messages, and does their LED feedback respond to MIDI output?
No, the FX1-FX4 and the FOCUS, MASTER, and DOUBLE buttons do NOT send MIDI messages and drive THEIR OWN feedback. They all work to modify their own functional group. There's no need to set a modifier with them, because the device itself modifies the MIDI output.

punky
02-23-2012, 03:28 PM
Interesting. I like that they drive their own feedback. I'm... half lazy. I like working to get things working the way I like them, but I'm not insane about that kind of thing like Jared (whom we both know is a bona fide nut about this stuff). He's the kind of guy who might want to flash the unit firmware and rewrite how that works. Will he be able to do that?

Hey out of curiosity, if I switch between the different FX, will the MIDI soft takeover work correctly? I know that if you had a knob set to send two different signals (say CC1, Ch 1 and CC1, Ch 2) Traktor used to flip out and not know wtf to do. I encountered this with my Feena, which was one of the reasons why I stopped using it.

Windows 95
02-23-2012, 03:55 PM
Behringer?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/175/889/oh%20god.png?1316467507


Ohh Gawd no!!Keep in mind they come with a three year warranty.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VMQADqfMP4

nem0nic
02-23-2012, 04:28 PM
He's the kind of guy who might want to flash the unit firmware and rewrite how that works. Will he be able to do that?
If someone wants to try and take apart the firmware and re-write it, I have no problem with that. Of course, you'll lose all support for the device, but that's life in the big city.


Hey out of curiosity, if I switch between the different FX, will the MIDI soft takeover work correctly? I know that if you had a knob set to send two different signals (say CC1, Ch 1 and CC1, Ch 2) Traktor used to flip out and not know wtf to do. I encountered this with my Feena, which was one of the reasons why I stopped using it.
Well, there isn't any soft takeover necessary. The controller tracks variables for you. So if knob 1 on FX1 is set to 64 and you switch to FX3, the controller still remembers that knob 1 in FX1 is set to 64 - so when you switch back it's there for you. What's more, those variables are tracked no matter what "mode" the controller is in. So on the PL-1 for example, if the pitch indicator for deck A is set to 7F, you switch to deck B, and then update deck A's pitch value to 64 - when you go back to deck A the pitch indicator will represent the updated (correct) value. You don't need to globally push the state back to the controller on a mode change. It keeps track of everything for you.

DjZzeless
02-23-2012, 08:35 PM
What you're not realizing is this: most of the market is frat party DJs and Joe Blow at the VFW hall. You, me, Nem, and most of the big muckety mucks on this forum are like... top 10 percenters. We're insane about our gear. Most people just want it to a) work and b) be cheap. They make due with setups that would make you and I blanch with horror.

^totally agree!

I have to say tho that I do believe the industry standard is Pioneer, around here anyways!

Interracial Tea
02-23-2012, 08:41 PM
Is it pronounced Beh-rihn-jer or Beh-ring-er?

nem0nic
02-23-2012, 10:52 PM
Either is fine. Typically it's "Beh-rihn-jer" in the US and "Beh-ring-er" in Europe.

hewzter
02-24-2012, 01:35 AM
Very hyped about these new modulars.

That is all.

punky
02-24-2012, 09:18 AM
If someone wants to try and take apart the firmware and re-write it, I have no problem with that. Of course, you'll lose all support for the device, but that's life in the big city.

That makes sense. Is there any ability to flash the firmware and reset it to factory settings? I guess my question is simply this - is there any way to simply remap all the buttons / knobs / sliders / whatever?



Well, there isn't any soft takeover necessary. The controller tracks variables for you. So if knob 1 on FX1 is set to 64 and you switch to FX3, the controller still remembers that knob 1 in FX1 is set to 64 - so when you switch back it's there for you. What's more, those variables are tracked no matter what "mode" the controller is in. So on the PL-1 for example, if the pitch indicator for deck A is set to 7F, you switch to deck B, and then update deck A's pitch value to 64 - when you go back to deck A the pitch indicator will represent the updated (correct) value. You don't need to globally push the state back to the controller on a mode change. It keeps track of everything for you.

That is SUPER awesome. And if, say, I have knob 1 in FX 1 set to 64, I switch to FX2, and in the software, I tweak knob 1 in FX 1 to 32, and then I switch back to FX1, it will still recognize the change?

Ellissentials
02-24-2012, 09:46 AM
Loving this stuff. I'm thinking of getting the mixer and 4 of those control surfaces with jog wheels (not sure of models of said items)

Very interested I mean.. you can not beat the price. If I don't like it, it would make for a good backup system. :dance:

punky
02-24-2012, 09:51 AM
It IS tempting to get four deck controllers, but I figure I don't need four of them. I could probably get away with just one.

Ellissentials
02-24-2012, 10:12 AM
Juggling multiple channels with 1 jog wheel is a pain in the sack. I currently juggle 4 channels with 2 jog wheels and only 2 channels of mixer so that's a total bitch :( I DO love my controller, and will continue the controller route probably forever :D (I have a VCI-100SE and am looking for 4 channels and 4 control surfaces, for a low cost... my child owns my wallet!)

Ellissentials
02-24-2012, 10:15 AM
Was going to be investing in the Numark n4

http://c804221.r21.cf2.rackcdn.com/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/u/num-n4_1.jpg

EDIT: I would really miss my dedicated filters I think

If I had the money, this is what I'd want overall for a controller.

http://www.djtechtools.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/VCI-400_top_m.jpeg

VCI-400 Ean Golden Edition. Deliciously huge, dedicated filter knobs <3 :D

Ellissentials
02-24-2012, 10:22 AM
Release Date: Summer 2012

Nice, definitely going to give this stuff a try. :tup: Thanks again for the heads up on this. Just may be an amazing piece of kit about to break them into "the level" they want to be. We'll see eh?

nem0nic
02-24-2012, 04:18 PM
That makes sense. Is there any ability to flash the firmware and reset it to factory settings? I guess my question is simply this - is there any way to simply remap all the buttons / knobs / sliders / whatever?
You're not changing the firmware, so why reset it? I'm not sure what you're pushing towards here. If you EVER have to reset the firmware to make a product work, someone somewhere fucked up. If you're asking about changing the specific messages a particular button or knob on a CMD controller sends - then no. They do not allow that depth of remapping. I didn't want to create a rabbit hole for 5% of the users that would confuse and cause problems for 95% of the users.


And if, say, I have knob 1 in FX 1 set to 64, I switch to FX2, and in the software, I tweak knob 1 in FX 1 to 32, and then I switch back to FX1, it will still recognize the change?
Of course.

ampnation
02-24-2012, 05:14 PM
I have 2 models from Behringer I've used (own one more but never even tested it yet) - a ub802 mixer bought new many years ago now, a couple of mx882 mixer/splitters.

The ub802 is fine as a mic pre or mixing for low expectation environments and I'm not sure if it was like this when I first got it, but it has noticeable channel bleed. I paid under $50 for it and it is useful from time to time even now when I other mixers from A&H, Ecler, Mackie and Denon.

The MX882's have been excellent. I used one of them most recently at a live event where videographers wanted to patch into the master output from my MixWizard. I used it much like a press box and each output has its own level and pan controls as well as led vu's for every channel. The audio from it is clean and the units have been bullet proof. Mind you they don't get a LOT of usage so YMMV.

Question to nemonic... At the price point, I'm assuming all of these controllers have RCA or other unbalanced outputs, right?

I could see having something like the Studio 4A as a backup to a main rig if you use a controller and the software support is for the same product assuming you aren't yet to the point where you can afford exact duplicates for all your equipment as your backup equipment (this coming from a wedding DJ perspective where backup equipment is crucial).

I'm sure there's a market for the modular system but I'm not it.

nem0nic
02-24-2012, 05:33 PM
At the price point, I'm assuming all of these controllers have RCA or other unbalanced outputs, right?
Only one of the CMD controllers has audio outputs at all (the Studio 4a), and they're RCA.

ampnation
02-24-2012, 10:47 PM
Only one of the CMD controllers has audio outputs at all (the Studio 4a), and they're RCA.

So, excuse my ignorance here but with no audio outs, this means one would need a separate audio interface such as the FCA610 in order to output to PA speakers with balanced signals on the products other than the Studio 4A? And of course for the Studio 4A the proper way (or at least one proper way) to go balanced then would be via an iso transformer like the ART DTI.

nem0nic
02-24-2012, 11:21 PM
So, excuse my ignorance here but with no audio outs, this means one would need a separate audio interface such as the FCA610 in order to output to PA speakers with balanced signals on the products other than the Studio 4A? And of course for the Studio 4A the proper way (or at least one proper way) to go balanced then would be via an iso transformer like the ART DTI.
Correct on both counts.

ReelDiel
02-25-2012, 07:27 PM
i have to say i have had the ddm4000 and I am still using my dcx2496 both are quality pieces of gearthat are feature backed for the price range. Both were just as relaible as any gear i have had, for the record my pioneer djm-700 shit a channel, the only mixer i have ever owned that need service.

These things look great, i have alot of love for my little $60 Nanokontrol, but one of these maybe in the future

punky
02-26-2012, 01:23 PM
I can live with no remapping, and I understand why you would set it up that way. Makes sense. I'm psyched to see it in action!!!

login
05-03-2012, 12:03 PM
so, any news on these? release date?

Seopril
05-03-2012, 12:21 PM
I can't wait for the CMD line. I'm either getting two PL-1's or a A4. I might also get the mixer or the one with 32 buttons for samples/hotcues (I forget the name, I think it's like Dv-1 or L-1 or something). I don't care that people say Behringer makes shitty gear because for one, I'm 16.... no job, no regular gigs, etc. Also, I think that Behringer will make a comeback in terms of DJ gear with the CMD series.

punky
05-03-2012, 01:00 PM
I've heard May, but I haven't heard any announcements.

punky
05-04-2012, 07:05 AM
Nice!!

MeowMix
05-04-2012, 08:47 AM
Im still peeved at the PL-1 not having dedicated loop controls. I think its an essential element of a deck control.

Will probably get it anyway and remap my way around the handicap.

jay melis
05-04-2012, 09:00 AM
Yes, Numark in a given month generates close to double what Pioneer DJ does.

Can you provide a source for this statement?

punky
05-04-2012, 09:02 AM
You could probably pretty easily remap the << and >> buttons to loop in and out.

It's a frustrating oversight, that's for sure. Weird that none of the CMD controllers seem to have dedicated loop controls. I wonder if nem0nic built something into the mapping.

nem0nic
05-04-2012, 09:18 AM
Can you provide a source for this statement?
MI Sales Track. It's a data point that's available to subscribers (for a fee) to provide insight into Musical Instrument industry sales.


Im still peeved at the PL-1 not having dedicated loop controls. I think its an essential element of a deck control.
There are 8 buttons and 8 knobs on the PL-1 that can be mapped to anything you want. There are also dedicated looping controls on the DV-1 if you prefer.

punky
05-04-2012, 09:22 AM
Ah wow, apparently I can't fucking read. Thanks for pointing that one out Nem.

Which do you prefer to use for looping? The DV-1 or the PL-1?

nem0nic
05-04-2012, 09:33 AM
The DV-1 hands down. But it might be more fun to map all 8 buttons on the PL-1 to discreet looping values. Or maybe to Beatmasher values ala the Midi Fighter.

punky
05-04-2012, 09:38 AM
I would love to have some kind of fixed beatmasher values. Or beatslicer.

It really drives me up a wall that NI is screwing us by not giving us full mapability to the new remix decks unless we have the F1. It just SCREAMS "screw the customer".

jay melis
05-04-2012, 09:44 AM
MI Sales Track. It's a data point that's available to subscribers (for a fee) to provide insight into Musical Instrument industry sales.


thanks for clarifying that.

Bassline Brine
05-04-2012, 11:06 PM
I can really see the CMD DC-1 becoming an integral part of my setup. It has the functions that I pretty much already map to my MPKmini, and enough pages so I can probably remove the dicers as well. And the browsing/loading functions.

It's basically what I've been looking for, and hasn't been out yet fully. Plus, these are some great price-points.

nem0nic
05-05-2012, 01:45 AM
I never thought about a mapping like this, but I suppose you could use the 8 buttons under the knobs to set a single modifier to all available values. That would give you a clear feedback for what page you're on, and only use up one modifier. And that would give you 8 pages for the controller. That's an interesting idea.

punky
05-05-2012, 10:02 AM
Yeah and if you set up the modifier change to send MIDI state, the LED indicators will all reset! I'd make that map for ya!

Phi
05-06-2012, 04:08 AM
I never thought about a mapping like this, but I suppose you could use the 8 buttons under the knobs to set a single modifier to all available values. That would give you a clear feedback for what page you're on, and only use up one modifier. And that would give you 8 pages for the controller. That's an interesting idea.

Yeah, I've got the loop knobs on my X1 set up like this so I can "scroll" the modifier from 0-5 for extra shift pages, it's really effective when you map some feedback to see the pages switching.

I know this is one of those "rabbit hole" questions but...

I had high hopes of buying up a bunch of SCS.3s and cannibalizing the touch sensors for my own DIY controller project since they are selling pretty cheap now, but I was impressed with how well the SCS.D was glued together and I fear breaking the pcb is almost assured in most cases. In your opinion will the CMD line be a little easier to get into, and possibly allow me to make some adjustments and/or reassemble?

These controllers look great! It's going to be hard to not buy more than one :)

alphi
05-08-2012, 03:13 PM
I'm waiting on a pair of pre-ordered PL-1's myself. Someone said May release? Why is Behringer so quiet about the date...

punky
05-08-2012, 03:19 PM
I'm waiting on a pair of pre-ordered PL-1's myself. Someone said May release? Why is Behringer so quiet about the date...

Could be any number of things. Nemonic could weigh in on that, but he's probably NDA-ed to death (I know I would be).

nem0nic
05-08-2012, 03:29 PM
It's not going to be a May release. It was NEVER supposed to be a May release. We've ALWAYS said it would be an end of summer release if all goes smoothly.

As to why we haven't set a solid release date, it's because that is generally suicide. They will be done when they are done. The only thing I can say with any authority is that they'll be out in 2012. It's not an NDA keeping me from saying anything. It's common sense.

punky
05-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Fair enough. Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin, Nem. Take your time with 'em, I say. Make sure they're right.

nem0nic
05-08-2012, 03:36 PM
Sorry I missed this earlier...


I had high hopes of buying up a bunch of SCS.3s and cannibalizing the touch sensors for my own DIY controller project since they are selling pretty cheap now, but I was impressed with how well the SCS.D was glued together and I fear breaking the pcb is almost assured in most cases.

Why on earth would you try to cannibalize the touch sensors in the SCS.3 controllers when you could easily order a cap sense strip from a place like Sparkfun? It wouldn't have worked anyway, because the touch strip areas don't work on their own. The CMD controllers will - by their nature - be easier to open up. But you don't gain anything really, because the components alone are cheaper than the product as a whole. CMDs are just standard controls in an enclosure. You could probably do just as well hitting up a Fry's.

nem0nic
05-08-2012, 03:37 PM
Fair enough. Sorry, didn't mean to get under your skin, Nem. Take your time with 'em, I say. Make sure they're right.
Oh no, it's not like that. Just answering the question.

punky
05-08-2012, 03:44 PM
Oh no, it's not like that. Just answering the question.

Cool, just checkin'. :)

Phi
05-09-2012, 11:02 AM
Why on earth would you try to cannibalize the touch sensors in the SCS.3 controllers when you could easily order a cap sense strip from a place like Sparkfun

Because touch sensor buttons run $8-$11 the strips are about $18-$20 and circular sensors are $40-$50... and a used scs.3d is $40-$60 and around $100 new, so I was really hoping that they were attached with ribbon cables so I could keep the "unit" intact but rearrange the sensor placement and rehouse them with other pieces on an internalized usb hub. Also, when you factor in the price of the led feedback, four tact buttons, and "DaBaby" usb board... these controllers have a street value that is probably less than their component value in the home market.


The CMD controllers will - by their nature - be easier to open up. Good! that 3.d was kind of ridiculously hard to open without a hammer. =)


But you don't gain anything really, because the components alone are cheaper than the product as a whole. CMDs are just standard controls in an enclosure. You could probably do just as well hitting up a Fry's.

You aren't factoring in the hassle you are saving me by providing the controls I need in a sensible layout with led feedback.

Honestly, these controllers come in at a price point that is very appetizing for a diy controller platform. I'm looking at the mm-1 and thinking that I might try to use it as the basis for a midi upgrade on my mixer. I will absolutely be buying a DC-1 and installing RGB el-tape on the inside of the pads to prepare it for Traktor's new "spin the rainbow" theme.

I imagine everything is simply soldered onto the board? Are the Boards made from FR-2 (Phenolic cotton paper), FR-3 (Cotton paper and epoxy), FR-4 (Woven glass and epoxy) or something like these?


Also, can you speak on the possibility of ordering new DC-1 pads from somewhere like mpcstuff.com? I imagine some people might really like the DC-1 if they could easily change the color of the pads and leds.

as always, thank you for the help nem0nic.

punky
05-09-2012, 12:06 PM
Dude, Phi, you're HARDCORE! :)

nem0nic
05-09-2012, 12:31 PM
...so I was really hoping that they were attached with ribbon cables so I could keep the "unit" intact but rearrange the sensor placement and rehouse them with other pieces on an internalized usb hub.
Nope. The PCB makes up the sensor, and IIRC that one had several layers.


Honestly, these controllers come in at a price point that is very appetizing for a diy controller platform.
Wait till you see how easy the firmware is to work with.


I imagine everything is simply soldered onto the board? Are the Boards made from FR-2 (Phenolic cotton paper), FR-3 (Cotton paper and epoxy), FR-4 (Woven glass and epoxy) or something like these?
Honestly, I have no idea right now. I don't believe we do many paper PCBs, so I would assume glass epoxy.


Also, can you speak on the possibility of ordering new DC-1 pads from somewhere like mpcstuff.com?
Not likely.

punky
05-09-2012, 12:44 PM
Easy firmware?! Holy crap, you done thought of everything, haven't you?!

nem0nic
05-09-2012, 01:59 PM
Easy firmware?! Holy crap, you done thought of everything, haven't you?!
You even flash the device firmware through standard MIDI (SYSEX). Right now I'm using MIDIOX to do all of my updating, but of course when they hit retail users will get a self contained app to do any necessary flashing.

Phi
05-09-2012, 02:12 PM
You even flash the device firmware through standard MIDI (SYSEX). Right now I'm using MIDIOX to do all of my updating, but of course when they hit retail users will get a self contained app to do any necessary flashing.

Word! and Thank you for the quick response. :) I wish you were cloned and then sold to every equipment company as an inclusive RD&PR package.

punky
05-09-2012, 02:22 PM
The NEMONIC PACKAGE! Now with 25% more online sternness!

Phi
05-09-2012, 02:34 PM
also, when you say the DC-1 isn't velocity sensitive, does that mean that the pads aren't built from force sensitive resistors? Velocity is a measurement of force over time so I'm confused by the statement about the pad not being velocity sensitive. Is that because they DO sense force but you haven't coded them to track force against time (for velocity), or is it because they are simple on/off buttons with no force measurement?

nem0nic
05-09-2012, 04:59 PM
The NEMONIC PACKAGE! Now with 25% more online sternness!
I've seen that on the back of a box at the video store.


...or is it because they are simple on/off buttons with no force measurement?
This. We are using tact switches for the buttons. I wanted the DC-1 experience to be more inline with the MIDI Fighter than the MPC. Numark/Akai has the pad controller thing on lock. I wanted to bring something a little different to the table.

Phi
05-09-2012, 05:39 PM
We are using tact switches for the buttons. I wanted the DC-1 experience to be more inline with the MIDI Fighter than the MPC. Numark/Akai has the pad controller thing on lock. I wanted to bring something a little different to the table.

I thought that would be the case, since there is about a 500% price increase between equitable tact switches and force sensors.

And I totally agree that DJs almost never need more than a tact switch for performance, this was a smart move.

punky
05-10-2012, 09:01 AM
I've seen that on the back of a box at the video store.


This. We are using tact switches for the buttons. I wanted the DC-1 experience to be more inline with the MIDI Fighter than the MPC. Numark/Akai has the pad controller thing on lock. I wanted to bring something a little different to the table.

Cool beans. How easy / hard would it be to replace the tact switches with arcade buttons?

nem0nic
05-10-2012, 11:36 AM
Cool beans. How easy / hard would it be to replace the tact switches with arcade buttons?
Might be tough, given the PCB is very close to the top plate. I'm not sure there's room for much bigger arcade buttons. Also, you'd have to get a new top plate made to accommodate them - so there's an additional expense as well.

punky
05-10-2012, 02:41 PM
So, if we wanted that, probably easier and cheaper in the end to just buy a MIDI Fighter. Fair enough. You've already given us the world on a silver platter. It'd be rude to demand the moon as well.

As a side note, how wack is it that Traktor isn't letting us map everything in the sample decks right now? The Ableton CMD controller would be the best.

nem0nic
05-10-2012, 08:15 PM
As a side note, how wack is it that Traktor isn't letting us map everything in the sample decks right now? The Ableton CMD controller would be the best.
I've already weighed in on this (and shut down a thread) on a different forum. While I stand to gain quite a bit from NI opening up the Remix deck functionality, I totally understand the reasons why they wouldn't. And unlike most others, I'm fine with them holding stuff back for their own hardware.

I'm more pissed off about what still isn't available in Traktor - like basic logic, a better full screen editor, and better MIDI support for high resolution controls.

DJ Highline
05-10-2012, 11:13 PM
On a slight thread hi-jack, any word on when those new HPX6000 headphones will be hitting the US market? And whats up with this line array that is on the new products slider on the Behringer home page?

Phi
05-11-2012, 01:39 AM
I'm more pissed off about what still isn't available in Traktor - like basic logic, a better full screen editor, and better MIDI support for high resolution controls.

Right?! Lol

nem0nic
05-11-2012, 08:24 AM
On a slight thread hi-jack, any word on when those new HPX6000 headphones will be hitting the US market?
These should be out soon. They're totally finished.


And whats up with this line array that is on the new products slider on the Behringer home page?
I don't have any visibility on those, except to say that they sound pretty good so far. I thought the little set we showed at NAMM was sweet.

punky
05-11-2012, 10:01 AM
Right?! Lol

God DEFINITELY agree. They say they're going to improve the controller manager sometime between now and 3.0, but god knows when that'll be. Maybe a year or so? A full screen editor would be amazing.


I've already weighed in on this (and shut down a thread) on a different forum. While I stand to gain quite a bit from NI opening up the Remix deck functionality, I totally understand the reasons why they wouldn't. And unlike most others, I'm fine with them holding stuff back for their own hardware.

I'm more pissed off about what still isn't available in Traktor - like basic logic, a better full screen editor, and better MIDI support for high resolution controls.

As a person who stands to gain from NI opening up functionality, what would you describe as their (non-corporate candy coated) reasons why they would hold the functionality back, aside from (what looks like to me) a cash grab on selling F1s. Is it really that hard to add MIDI functionality that allows us to program our traditional 16 pad controllers for sample control? Is there some under-the-hood stuff that I wouldn't see / understand as a sales rep and not a product development guy?

Phi
05-11-2012, 11:00 AM
As a person who stands to gain from NI opening up functionality, what would you describe as their (non-corporate candy coated) reasons why they would hold the functionality back, aside from (what looks like to me) a cash grab on selling F1s. Is it really that hard to add MIDI functionality that allows us to program our traditional 16 pad controllers for sample control? Is there some under-the-hood stuff that I wouldn't see / understand as a sales rep and not a product development guy?

Yeah, it seems to me that the CMD line was so damn spot on they were afraid that everyone who wanted the functionality of an F1 at a less expensive price would just get a DC/LC-1.

on the F1 I just don't see anything that would warrant this "lockdown"

wouldn't what you said about the CMD line being
... just standard controls in an enclosure. also be the case with the F1? Or did they use technology from a crashed UFO...

punky
05-11-2012, 01:06 PM
HA! Good one.

Seriously though, as a sales rep, I try to see things as a customer would - and this is, without a doubt, pissing the customers off.

nem0nic
05-11-2012, 01:19 PM
As a person who stands to gain from NI opening up functionality, what would you describe as their (non-corporate candy coated) reasons why they would hold the functionality back, aside from (what looks like to me) a cash grab on selling F1s...
First of all, what's wrong with a cash grab? Speaking from a purely business point of view, why should NI's competitors benefit every time NI comes up with a new software feature? The DJ business is extremely competitive, and now everyone is after the same share of the market (because controllers now make up half of all DJ sales). I'm not sure I could vilify NI if they wanted to turn the F1 into a bill payer.

That said, I believe that the issue with the F1 revolves around the workflow. The guys at Native have developed a totally new (to Traktor) workflow to allow for clip based performance. And they obviously developed this software functionality around a specific set of hardware features. Right now, the F1 is the only piece of hardware that totally satisfies their needs. It's important for a good number of reasons for NI to protect this new workflow so that it's represented properly. Once the workflow becomes more well known and understood, NI might decide that it makes sense to open it up to other devices.


Is it really that hard to add MIDI functionality that allows us to program our traditional 16 pad controllers for sample control?
I honestly don't know, because I don't know everything the Remix decks do or how they interact with the F1. Neither does anyone else not working for NI.

The Remix decks aren't just about a 16 button array. If they were, it would be no different than any number of other sample players out there. I'm working under that assumption because if it were just about having 16 buttons, NI would have made it compatible with Maschine on launch (a product they make way more money selling than the F1).

punky
05-11-2012, 01:33 PM
From what I've read, it appears that they left out the color functionality and the "paging" functionality. It seems like the remix decks allow for 64 samples per deck which is great. Kudos to them. But I still don't understand why I couldn't scroll the pages with any controller. I mean, sure, maybe there's some insane stuff going on under the hood that I don't understand. But they've been very mum about it in a way that doesn't look good.

From a business point of view, I totally understand it. Makes perfect sense. From a customer's point of view, it's really frustrating. From a PR point of view, customers are interpreting this as "We don't care very much about you." I miss when Traktor was primarily a software company, and kept the platform as open as possible to accommodate anyone who wanted to use it, the way they wanted to use it.

If they open it up later... all right. Frustrating, but all right. But if it never opens up? Pretty lame to me. Maybe good business, especially since people aren't going to leave the platform as there is really no viable alternative (Serato doesn't even remotely do what Traktor does, and they're very different markets at this point), but not the way I would've played it. But I'm probably too much of a customer to ever be a good businessman.

EDIT: They've already announced that they're going to open it up; it's just a question of when. Still irritating.

As for the workflow being represented well - you and I both know people who could make insane mappings if only they were allowed to do so. They might even impress the people at NI. I know people who LIVE to do wacky shit with controllers. So I don't know if I accept that the workflow wouldn't be represented well by home-mappers.

Phi
05-11-2012, 01:45 PM
We already discussed how to do paging with modifiers in this post.

And I remember something about NI saying there wasn't a industry standard RGB protocal, which I agree is irritating...

Ok, I think I understand why they did this, but I think they would have saved themselves from some negative publicity by just leaving the controls open.

Thanks for clearing that up a little for us nem0nic :)

punky
05-11-2012, 01:49 PM
Yeah, no standard, which is definitely irritating. But they have stuff already built into the controller manager to control range and such which can help control LED behavior. Though to be fair, the LED shit on the F1 is pretty advanced and wacky. I could live without the feedback. Really, I wanted to be able to page.

Phi
05-11-2012, 01:57 PM
Really, I wanted to be able to page.

Just map modifier to an encoder, knob, slider, or row of buttons and make it scroll between the values. Then map controls to happen at m=0 through m=7. There are eight pages built into Traitor. Or 64 if you use two modifiers in a cascading configuration.

punky
05-11-2012, 02:12 PM
I know. It works great. But NI isn't letting you DO that with the Remix Decks without the F1. Which is what's pissing me (and a lot of other people) off.

Phi
05-11-2012, 02:33 PM
I know. It works great. But NI isn't letting you DO that with the Remix Decks without the F1. Which is what's pissing me (and a lot of other people) off.

Oh... right. I got mixed up for a sec. Sorry. ;)

It just screams that the NI business model places general profit above creating a product that is profitable because it is what the customer wants.

nem0nic
05-11-2012, 06:43 PM
As for the workflow being represented well - you and I both know people who could make insane mappings if only they were allowed to do so.
Sure. But let's say that you open up the mapping on a new workflow and DJTT tries to do a MIDI Fighter mapping for it. There's going to be quite a lot left out. What happens then if people judge the new workflow based on the shitty mappings created to try and shoehorn controller X into a Remix deck? Is that giving the new functionality a chance to be properly represented? How do you tell clips apart? Or pages?

Again, the telling sign for me is that it doesn't work with Maschine either. If it was only a money grab, they would have designed it from the beginning to also work with the more expensive controller as well as the F1. But they didn't, because Maschine is just as bad at controlling the Remix decks as any other MPC style controller out there.


I could live without the feedback.
How do you know? Do you really have any idea of how important the LED feedback is? I know I certainly don't.


It just screams that the NI business model places general profit above creating a product that is profitable because it is what the customer wants.
I don't think that's quite fair. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and say things like that when you don't really have a stake in the game. Serato has had a similar business model since they started, and their customer's perception of them is pretty stellar. How many of the people complaining about the F1 issue own and champion Apple laptops? Why isn't it a problem for those companies?

Because NI was open from the beginning?

NI also didn't used to make hardware, and digital DJing represented about 8% of total DJ product sales. Things change. Businesses move to react to the market. NI has to be able to compete with both software AND hardware companies now.

And take it from someone who is in a position to see the market as a whole. MOST DJ product buyers DO NOT WANT OR CARE ABOUT manual MIDI mapping. It is too complicated for them, and they don't want to bother. They want to spend money for a thing, connect thing to computer, and use thing immediately. The F1 delivers that. I have my own hunch about just how far this new Remix deck functionality goes to deliver that kind of hands free experience to the user, and I'm guessing that it goes much farther than just a controller.

Only nerds like us are interested in manual mapping. And we make up maybe 5% of the market as a whole. Everyone else just wants it to work.

Phi
05-11-2012, 07:08 PM
Again nem0nic, I really do see all those points as completely valid.

I had my own intuitions about the F1 being a steppingstone to future maschine integration, but I think you are absolutely correct here. They will probably relaunch th M1 with RGB pads for Maschine 2 ( around or just after TP3) and use the F1 as a live-performance oriented controller between the two.



Only nerds like us are interested in manual mapping. And we make up maybe 5% of the market as a whole. Everyone else just wants it to work.

I know... my DJ friends all but refuse to understand basic computer stuff, all my computer/robotics peers typically have no concept of what djs need/do, and all my musician friends think that live music production is cheating. :(

It's a lonely world for the Dj nerd lol

punky
05-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Sure. But let's say that you open up the mapping on a new workflow and DJTT tries to do a MIDI Fighter mapping for it. There's going to be quite a lot left out. What happens then if people judge the new workflow based on the shitty mappings created to try and shoehorn controller X into a Remix deck? Is that giving the new functionality a chance to be properly represented? How do you tell clips apart? Or pages?

I should HOPE that when you change pages, both for the F1 and any other controller, the on screen display of the clips will change. Why can't any standard MIDI message change that?


Again, the telling sign for me is that it doesn't work with Maschine either. If it was only a money grab, they would have designed it from the beginning to also work with the more expensive controller as well as the F1. But they didn't, because Maschine is just as bad at controlling the Remix decks as any other MPC style controller out there.

Additionally, if they locked their functionality into a $600 controller, think the outcry would be twice as loud and people would be a LOT less likely to buy it. The F1 cash grab will probably work. A Maschine cash grab might have backfired.


How do you know? Do you really have any idea of how important the LED feedback is? I know I certainly don't.

I suppose I only know as much as anyone else, from the demo videos. But it doesn't seem entirely vital. Also, I rolled with the FMDJ9303 for years, like you did. You look at the damn screen. :)


I don't think that's quite fair. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback and say things like that when you don't really have a stake in the game. Serato has had a similar business model since they started, and their customer's perception of them is pretty stellar. How many of the people complaining about the F1 issue own and champion Apple laptops? Why isn't it a problem for those companies?

Yo, you will NEVER see me high fiving Apple over this kind of crap. I just rooted my HP TouchPad to run Android because I thought it would be kind of funny. And I'm glad I was able to do that! Openness, woo hoo! :)


Because NI was open from the beginning?

That's part of it, yeah.

It's just sad that the times changing included (what we both agree is) a cash grab.


And take it from someone who is in a position to see the market as a whole. MOST DJ product buyers DO NOT WANT OR CARE ABOUT manual MIDI mapping. It is too complicated for them, and they don't want to bother. They want to spend money for a thing, connect thing to computer, and use thing immediately. The F1 delivers that. I have my own hunch about just how far this new Remix deck functionality goes to deliver that kind of hands free experience to the user, and I'm guessing that it goes much farther than just a controller.

Only nerds like us are interested in manual mapping. And we make up maybe 5% of the market as a whole. Everyone else just wants it to work.



I know... my DJ friends all but refuse to understand basic computer stuff, all my computer/robotics peers typically have no concept of what djs need/do, and all my musician friends think that live music production is cheating.

It's a lonely world for the Dj nerd lol


I know, it just makes me sad / angry. I know why everything caters to the lowest common denominator. But that doesn't make me want to jump for joy or anything. My tech savvy friend ran across an article that talked about how teens and early 20s folk today actually know less about how their technology did than our generation did/does. Interfaces have gotten so simple and intuitive that the interest, that need, that passion, just isn't there anymore. While I can appreciate usability (No one's grandma wants to deal with Linux kernels) I'd also like a world where corporations encouraged curiosity, innovation, and getting under the hood. Now it seems like everything is getting more locked down, more locked in, and more difficult. And that is just some depressing shit to me.

punky
05-11-2012, 07:31 PM
Yo, to be honest, Nem, I just wanted to buy like five of your Behringer controllers, build the perfect map, and NEVER HAVE TO WORRY EVER AGAIN. And now I have to choose again, and it's hella annoying. I was locked in for CMDs, but now I have to consider what I might lose out on. Frack.

Phi
05-11-2012, 07:58 PM
I know, it just makes me sad / angry. I know why everything caters to the lowest common denominator. But that doesn't make me want to jump for joy or anything. My tech savvy friend ran across an article that talked about how teens and early 20s folk today actually know less about how their technology did than our generation did/does. Interfaces have gotten so simple and intuitive that the interest, that need, that passion, just isn't there anymore. While I can appreciate usability (No one's grandma wants to deal with Linux kernels) I'd also like a world where corporations encouraged curiosity, innovation, and getting under the hood. Now it seems like everything is getting more locked down, more locked in, and more difficult. And that is just some depressing shit to me.

Truth.




Yo, to be honest, Nem, I just wanted to buy like five of your Behringer controllers, build the perfect map, and NEVER HAVE TO WORRY EVER AGAIN. And now I have to choose again, and it's hella annoying. I was locked in for CMDs, but now I have to consider what I might lose out on. Frack.

I was going to build detailed and legitimate mappings for any controller I had and give them away in hopes that someone will make someone else dance. I would do the hard work so dj-joe can have his p&p experience, and do it for no money because I enjoy making detailed mappings.

...I don't know what Frack means...

nem0nic
05-11-2012, 09:25 PM
I should HOPE that when you change pages, both for the F1 and any other controller, the on screen display of the clips will change. Why can't any standard MIDI message change that?
But isn't the whole point of putting in MIDI feedback so that the user can see what's going on without looking at the screen?


Additionally, if they locked their functionality into a $600 controller, think the outcry would be twice as loud and people would be a LOT less likely to buy it. The F1 cash grab will probably work. A Maschine cash grab might have backfired.
You've missed my point here. I said that if NI were going for a cash grab only, they would have ALSO made it work with Maschine. I never implied an either/or scenario.


I suppose I only know as much as anyone else, from the demo videos. But it doesn't seem entirely vital. Also, I rolled with the FMDJ9303 for years, like you did. You look at the damn screen.
Of course I did. But I'm also NOT the typical customer. And from a hardware development standpoint, if I go to the trouble of putting in compelling MIDI feedback, I want it to be able to give the user all they need to control that functionality without needing to see the screen.


It's just sad that the times changing included (what we both agree is) a cash grab.
Don't go putting words into my mouth. I never said it was a cash grab. In fact, I said specifically that I thought it was NI trying to protect a workflow. However, I have NO PROBLEM with a cash grab by ANY company. That includes NI.


I'd also like a world where corporations encouraged curiosity, innovation, and getting under the hood. Now it seems like everything is getting more locked down, more locked in, and more difficult. And that is just some depressing shit to me.
The people who want to learn will ALWAYS find a way into closed systems. That HAS ALWAYS been the nature of genuine curiosity and intelligence. But making products easier for the majority of customers to use is the point of industrial design.

ampnation
05-12-2012, 02:08 AM
If company X makes a high level programming language and people want more control, and they come out with an assembly compiler level for their geekier users, SOME are gonna moan about how they don't get the full access of machine code. I would just be the guy asking for a more robust high level programming language... more functions, more handles, etc.

I would hope DJ software companies would take a similar approach. Make it relatively easy to gain a higher level of control. I was a database admin and loved products like SQL Server and Crystal Reports and Visual Basic because they provided MOST of what I needed without making me work my butt off for every little feature. Crystal Reports was not a MS product but made possible by the way MS does business. I want the same thing out of my DJ software... extensibility. Even if the company itself doesn't make something directly available, I want them to be able to make it open enough that someone else can. I want someone who has a different take to have the tools they need to make a niche controller like DJTT stuff. I know my example of Microsoft isn't the king of open source, but I think they found a great product niche by providing something in between open source and a completely locked down system. They provide robust APIs and they make a lot of money. I personally am glad they do.

punky
05-13-2012, 01:26 PM
But isn't the whole point of putting in MIDI feedback so that the user can see what's going on without looking at the screen?


You've missed my point here. I said that if NI were going for a cash grab only, they would have ALSO made it work with Maschine. I never implied an either/or scenario.


Of course I did. But I'm also NOT the typical customer. And from a hardware development standpoint, if I go to the trouble of putting in compelling MIDI feedback, I want it to be able to give the user all they need to control that functionality without needing to see the screen.


Don't go putting words into my mouth. I never said it was a cash grab. In fact, I said specifically that I thought it was NI trying to protect a workflow. However, I have NO PROBLEM with a cash grab by ANY company. That includes NI.


The people who want to learn will ALWAYS find a way into closed systems. That HAS ALWAYS been the nature of genuine curiosity and intelligence. But making products easier for the majority of customers to use is the point of industrial design.

Sorry, didn't mean to put words in your mouth. That's what happens when you reply in a rush.

I think my main issue is that I really don't believe that having plug and play functionality gets in the way of good industrial design. I don't think it would've been that big of an issue to give us more control over remix decks. Sure, I don't have any concrete proof of that. But we'll find out by the end of the month, eh?

RE: compelling MIDI feedback - if you really want that compelling MIDI feedback, then you could buy an F1. But if you're willing to make a compromise / need to save money and want to use the controllers you already own, I would think that you'd be willing to look at the screen. I know that I'd be willing to.

Phi
05-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Ok, NI might do something different and unexpected with the software/hardware integration, but they sure didn't add that exciting notion to the advertising/marketing campaign... it would have been a huge selling point if they did something new that you didn't get anywhere else.

They would have advertised the hell out of whatever the new "under the hood" technology that allowed them to do this amazing new thing.
But no, they are advertising a new clip based workflow. And they are not advertising it as anything but a workflow/controler combo that is new to Traktor.

Wouldn't they try to show how the new controler does things that no other controler can do because that would sell more F1s?

"The Traktor remix F1 uses new and exiting technology that has no parallel in the industry and allows new controls and features that are unachievable with any other platform. Buy your new F1 today and step into the future of DJing with Traktor Remix!˝ -- this is the kind of shiz we would see if they actually had something new.

I think that judging by the way they are advertising it we are watching them lock functionality to sell hardware, not produce hardware that increases functionality.

Nothing wrong with that unless you feel like a successful company should compete in providing a better, consumer pleasing product, and profit by being innovative and unique, instead of profiting by being secretive, selfish, and repressive.






I don't buy Rane/Serato/itch products because of this same business model.

NI will lose me as a customer if they continue down this path.

punky
05-13-2012, 02:52 PM
@Nem - What Phi said. Even if that *isn't* the case (for reasons that you've pointed out), it sure LOOKS that way to a lot of us. And that's a PR problem.

Phi
05-13-2012, 03:39 PM
I want the same thing out of my DJ software... extensibility. Even if the company itself doesn't make something directly available, I want them to be able to make it open enough that someone else can. I want someone who has a different take to have the tools they need to make a niche controller like DJTT stuff.

This is one of the aspects that attracted me to Traktor initially, and it might be what gets me to switch...






But I also see that NI is working towards a total integration of its major SW into one huge composite DVAW and that is going to take some intense hardware integration.

and as punky said on the first page ...
Takes a lot of balls to buck the trend. If you look at most of the DJ controller market, they started with two channels... then went to four channels... now are going back to two channels.... not a lot of original thought there. And I can appreciate why that is - when people's livelihoods are depending on the success of a product, it's hard to take a risk.

nem0nic
05-13-2012, 04:59 PM
I'm not slighting either of you, and I understand how you feel. But it's easy to criticize what NI is doing when you have no stake in the game, and no clear visibility of their overall roadmap. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I think I might see a little bit bigger picture here than a controller mapping. And if I'm right, NI will be responsible for a massive change in how people DJ.

punky
05-13-2012, 05:05 PM
Here's to hoping. If they open up things in a year though, and it's not nearly as crazy and off the hook as we thought, then that might look even worse. Then again, by then, this whole thing may have blown over. Time will tell I suppose. We're all basically powerless in this, which I think is why people are annoyed.

punky
05-13-2012, 06:13 PM
PS You have good points, and I am planning on buying your controllers (if only someone would buy my damn controllers!)

oliosky
05-13-2012, 06:19 PM
I want that CMD MM1 like right now. Send me a pre release version Nemonic. I'll give some valuable feedback about the controllers performance in southern hemisphere conditions. PM me.

Interracial Tea
05-13-2012, 09:32 PM
I can give feedback in bedroom conditions.

Phi
05-13-2012, 10:19 PM
...it's easy to criticize what NI is doing when you have no stake in the game, and no clear visibility of their overall roadmap. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I think I might see a little bit bigger picture here than a controller mapping. And if I'm right, NI will be responsible for a massive change in how people DJ.

I don't feel that I have been overly critical because I am careful to qualify my statements with a lot of "if" or "might"s, and I am still an unabashed NI fanboy :slayer:

... as for being on the sidelines... I would take a course in German and relocate to Berlin for an opportunity to work in the DJ product industry :dance:



I also see a bigger picture, my friend. :) but it's a little OT

NI's timeline is a little hazy but their roadmap is written on the walls. This "new approach" is reactionary, and directly addresses their main competitor, Serato's Bridge.

NI watched as the Bridge launched without a concrete, and uniform, workflow and decided to tackle that head on with an integrated HW/SW solution because of how well that has worked for them with Maschine. They need the workflow to be well represented in this release so that the "dj-joe" consumer can be enlightened and brought into a new arena of DJing where live performance aspects become more commonplace, accessible, and intrinsically valuable.

At the same time that they are closing ground between Traktor and Ableton to give TP3 a "traditional" DJ experience with the addition of live-performance characteristics, also, they are continuing to flesh out Maschine in the vein of a DAW which features it's own unique set of live-performance characteristics. You don't need to be an industry elite to see what's coming next here; the question is really about "when." My assumption is that we will probably see a couple minor updates concerning "remix bugs" and get TP3 next year. At that time they will probably open up the mapping for all controllers.

It does make sense from that standpoint, but I think that the way to handle this would have been to make the "remix" upgrade a paid one, but give it away free with the F1, and keep the mappings open. It would essentially be the same thing on their end, just with more manageable PR... except that they need to spend time refining the end user experience, not helping someone with problems mapping the APC-20 to remix controls/feedback.




back on topic...
I suppose the CMD line isn't as threatened by this because they don't seem to be coming out right away, and I think you might have been assured that the functionality will open up next year-ish, which is at the latter end of your release window.

Did I miss anything?


Edit: I hope that doesn't come off sounding anything but jovial, because that is how I meant it :) thanks for the good info and great products!

nem0nic
05-13-2012, 11:35 PM
This "new approach" is reactionary, and directly addresses their main competitor, Serato's Bridge.
Really? I see Bridge as a failed experiment. It was only ever half completed, and not fully realized. I attribute this primarily to a lack of support from the Ableton side. I don't think they see DJing as a valid use case. At it's best, Bridge is an expensive and clunky solution that is hardly accessible to the majority of users. It's complicated, and still doesn't give you the kind of functionality that even older add-ons like Ammobox were capable of. Have you ever really USED Bridge?


You don't need to be an industry elite to see what's coming next here; the question is really about "when." My assumption is that we will probably see a couple minor updates concerning "remix bugs" and get TP3 next year. At that time they will probably open up the mapping for all controllers.
And I haven't heard you mention the one thing that logically should follow this new functionality. I think you're only seeing half the picture.


It would essentially be the same thing on their end, just with more manageable PR... except that they need to spend time refining the end user experience, not helping someone with problems mapping the APC-20 to remix controls/feedback.
I think you've greatly simplified what is a complex and nuanced workflow. And you've over-simplified the idea of mapping towards it. Even taking the color feedback totally out of the equation, I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be.


I suppose the CMD line isn't as threatened by this because they don't seem to be coming out right away, and I think you might have been assured that the functionality will open up next year-ish, which is at the latter end of your release window.
Here's where I'll be cocky. CMD isn't threatened by anything I can see coming out by anyone in the next year or so. There's so much functionality built into these things that I don't see anyone else being able to get near them anytime soon without taking a loss. 4 years from now, there will be communities built around hacking the firmware in these things, and people will trade configurations in forums. If I'm allowed to follow through with my plan, no other company will want to even try to build a controller under $200 because they'll know there's already a better (and cheaper) product on the market. I want to make MIDI controllers such a commodity item that you can buy them in vending machines. And I want to re-define what is an acceptable feature set for controllers at any price. No MIDI feedback? Unacceptable. Not easy for developers and customers to work with? Unacceptable.

Not at all ambitious, am I?

And believe me, I appreciate being able to geek out on DJ stuff with you guys. I typically can't even do that at work. So this is all very much appreciated.

Phi
05-14-2012, 12:24 AM
Yes, NI probably started working on a reaction to the Bridge when they first heard rumors of it, they would be daft not to. This is their first consumer ready product featuring the functionality that is born of that reaction. Probably has nothing to do with them calling it "Ableton in a DJ way" or whatever. ;)

NI had the advantage of watching that flop and fixing some of the problems before their "reaction" comes to market.

You already mentioned why the Bridge failed, and that is exactly what NI is doing differently. They are keeping it all in house.


I would never be so nieve as to think I saw the "whole" picture, I said "bigger" :) I am very interested in what I missed. That is why I asked. If you are talking about flexgrids... I didn't mention it because I had previously in another post.



I think you misunderstood what I was saying about more managable PR, I was totally agreeing with you at the end.



Also, I never said CMD was threatened by a product, I said it is only as viable as the software allows it to be... Which should be accurate, no?

Phi
05-14-2012, 12:43 AM
I think you've greatly simplified what is a complex and nuanced workflow. And you've over-simplified the idea of mapping towards it. Even taking the color feedback totally out of the equation, I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be.



And I think that people often exaggerate the complexity of midi mapping, but also I think using modifiers to generate a LFO for any mappable parameter was kind of simple... So you might have a point :lol:


4 years from now, there will be communities built around hacking the firmware in these things, and people will trade configurations in forums.... And I want to re-define what is an acceptable feature set for controllers at any price. No MIDI feedback? Unacceptable. Not easy for developers and customers to work with? Unacceptabl.

My hero!:love:

Edit: I didn't mean to start another post, I meant to put this in the midle of the last one, sorry

punky
05-14-2012, 12:17 PM
Really? I see Bridge as a failed experiment. It was only ever half completed, and not fully realized. I attribute this primarily to a lack of support from the Ableton side. I don't think they see DJing as a valid use case. At it's best, Bridge is an expensive and clunky solution that is hardly accessible to the majority of users. It's complicated, and still doesn't give you the kind of functionality that even older add-ons like Ammobox were capable of. Have you ever really USED Bridge?


And I haven't heard you mention the one thing that logically should follow this new functionality. I think you're only seeing half the picture.


I think you've greatly simplified what is a complex and nuanced workflow. And you've over-simplified the idea of mapping towards it. Even taking the color feedback totally out of the equation, I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be.


Here's where I'll be cocky. CMD isn't threatened by anything I can see coming out by anyone in the next year or so. There's so much functionality built into these things that I don't see anyone else being able to get near them anytime soon without taking a loss. 4 years from now, there will be communities built around hacking the firmware in these things, and people will trade configurations in forums. If I'm allowed to follow through with my plan, no other company will want to even try to build a controller under $200 because they'll know there's already a better (and cheaper) product on the market. I want to make MIDI controllers such a commodity item that you can buy them in vending machines. And I want to re-define what is an acceptable feature set for controllers at any price. No MIDI feedback? Unacceptable. Not easy for developers and customers to work with? Unacceptable.

Not at all ambitious, am I?

And believe me, I appreciate being able to geek out on DJ stuff with you guys. I typically can't even do that at work. So this is all very much appreciated.

I definitely, 100% agree with you that the Bridge is a failed experiment. It's actually kind of depressing to see how little Ableton cares about DJs. They could've opened their application up to a whole new market, and instead, as NI improves Traktor, it'll slowly be left behind.

Also, please be cocky. There are too many people releasing timid, me-too two and four channel controllers. I can't WAIT to see what the CMD offers. Easy to alter firmware and MIDI feedback as a must? Definitely. You have a great vision here, and I hope Behringer helps you get there.

Geek away. You have wonderful insight and tons of knowledge. I wish I could get AI into the controller game.

punky
05-14-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm also kind of proud that my post has spawned a 14 page thread. That was pretty rare even on the old, better attended DJF.

Phi
05-14-2012, 02:14 PM
The experiment fails for serato, but on a pure functionality basis. NI is taking the concept and (hopefully) doing it right.



I wish I could get AI into the controller game.

Meeeeee toooo! I think you guys should do a mixer with midi. OR sell an X1 that is cut in half so I can have controls for deck A on the left side of my mixer and controls for deck B on the right... Just four knobs, two encoders and ten buttons in a skinny vertical "stick" that fits on either side of the mixer. Kind of like the mixer equivalent to dicers.

If you ever want some help at AI *cough cough* :D

punky
05-14-2012, 02:21 PM
The mixer market contracted radically over the last few years, though, as far as I understand it (which isn't much, admittedly) it's stabilized, at a much smaller size than it was before. Everyone moved to controllers. So a mixer with MIDI is out.

I had an idea for something to accompany a mixer, but even that doesn't work in a mixerless world. Until we come up with something truly astounding, there isn't much point, I think.

Phi
05-14-2012, 02:39 PM
One word... Sprayonbacon

I have a dream that one day we will all eat our bacon from an aerosol can.
Not aerosol bacon flavoring, but real emulsified bacon in a spray can.


Frack.




I also have decent plans for Sprayon spaghetti/marinara but that is more of a niche market ;)

this is only half joking, I really did make designs for a Sprayonbacon can... :lol:

punky
05-14-2012, 02:50 PM
You could become an internet sensation!

(FRACK is a word popularized by Battlestar Galactica)

punky
06-11-2012, 03:45 PM
Hey anymore word on these controllers? Anyone hear anything? I'm aching to buy new toys. :P

oliosky
06-11-2012, 03:52 PM
You could become an internet sensation!

(FRACK is a word popularized by Battlestar Galactica)

Are they referring to the hydraulic fracturing of rock as part of the extraction of hydrocarbons?

punky
06-11-2012, 03:58 PM
Are they referring to the hydraulic fracturing of rock as part of the extraction of hydrocarbons?

It'd be hilarious if they were.

Akshayk
06-11-2012, 05:33 PM
When will they be coming out?

nem0nic
06-11-2012, 06:37 PM
End of summer/ beginning of fall.

Phi
06-11-2012, 06:58 PM
End of summer/ beginning of fall.

I am very, very exited to hear that! I have been pumping up everyone I know about these :)

punky
06-11-2012, 07:18 PM
End of summer/ beginning of fall.

Cool! Glad to hear it. That's when I'll finally get more time to mess with DJ stufff anyway.

cooper
08-31-2012, 11:57 PM
Without sounding impatient, any updates on a release?

I just got SSL and am looking into a MIDI controller for looping, cue points & FX. The X1 came close, the Dicers look cool, but the DV-1 looks PERFECT!!!

Interracial Tea
10-03-2012, 04:26 PM
So uhh, whatever happened to this thing? It still says coming soon on the Behringer website.

g-sep
10-03-2012, 04:53 PM
So uhh, whatever happened to this thing? It still says coming soon on the Behringer website.

I know! I was looking forward to picking up that mixer to go along with an x1 and f1.

cooper
10-03-2012, 05:10 PM
I got tired of waiting and bought a used X1.

punky
10-03-2012, 06:08 PM
Yeah wondering about that myself. Nem, care to chime in? I'm about to buy an F1.

cooper
10-03-2012, 06:36 PM
On one hand, if they're taking the time to put out a quality product, I fully support that. On the other hand, it's frustrating when a product is announced and takes forever to be released.

Will MaXimal
10-03-2012, 06:45 PM
DJForums did an exclusive on these... Has anyone seen that video?

punky
10-03-2012, 07:04 PM
On one hand, if they're taking the time to put out a quality product, I fully support that. On the other hand, it's frustrating when a product is announced and takes forever to be released.

NAMM does stand for "Not Available, Maybe May" - they never specified WHICH May. :P

MeowMix
10-03-2012, 10:16 PM
On the other hand, it's frustrating when a product is announced and takes forever to be released.

thats a major marketing failure i think. I have completely lost interest in this and the timing market wise i think is off since the attention on modular is not as high as 6-9 months ago.

on the other hand even if the timing is off the novelty factor of an announcement can boost attention to the product. Its a thin line to walk but there must be a reason why the big boys keep thing tight and release not too long after teaser and announcement.

punky
10-03-2012, 10:56 PM
It's true.

Also, it's going to be hard to compete with the NI F1, X1, and Allen and Heath K2. They're getting entrenched now, and people recommend them without even thinking about it. Hell, I've got my friend's borrowed F1 here, and I've got to say - this thing is SWEET.

nem0nic
10-04-2012, 08:54 AM
We've made some changes to the CMD controllers to make them better, and that's been the cause of the delay. But the changes are worth it because it establishes a standard we'll use going forward.

As far as questioning whether to wait or buy an F1, I'm not sure I understand. You would buy an F1 because you want to control the remix decks, and the F1 is the ONLY controller that gives you full control over them. It's not known if NI is going to open up that functionality or when. So if you're looking at an F1, buy one. Hell, I have one. It's a solid controller.

I'm not worried about any controller being entrenched, because the controller market is not a zero-sum game. Never has been. There's plenty of room for everybody. And I think that when CMD is released they'll not only be successful products, but they'll redefine what people consider acceptable quality and functionality.

punky
10-04-2012, 09:07 AM
Glad to hear all of that, Nem. Psyched to see them come out.

nem0nic
10-05-2012, 10:36 PM
BTW... Someone just leaked a pic.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=25903905&l=657ae0556d&id=208093975005

Don Vittorio
10-05-2012, 11:56 PM
That leaked pic looks EXACTLY how the Behringer CMD Studio 4a looked months ago. There are no changes I can see at all. All they did was change the LED colours.

http://www.behringer.com/assets/CMD-STUDIO-4A_P0809_Left_XL.png
old photo

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/578409_10152152427050006_1972698203_n.jpg
leaked photo

Too bad, I would have bought this when I saw it first announced, but now, no thanks.

nem0nic
10-06-2012, 09:00 AM
All they did was change the LED colours.
I can assure you that a lot more than that has changed.

punky
10-06-2012, 09:38 AM
Nice! I'm less interested in the two channel unit than I am in the modular units in the CMD series, but it looks sweet.

nem0nic
10-09-2012, 07:04 PM
Unique Squared spills the beans about the new CMD changes...

http://bit.ly/QSgIfF

Ellissentials
10-09-2012, 07:30 PM
*EDIT* Deleted... I'm an idiot. :tup:


Carry on.

punky
10-09-2012, 09:12 PM
Nice. I'm loony forward to these.

JeffJensen
10-09-2012, 11:58 PM
Hey nem0nic, the article stated that the hardware/software combo is still in the works...I know you can't release any info on the company/companies that are possible candidates, but can you confirm that it is close to being completed?

Thanks for all of your input on this gear! Its great to have someone on the inside to ask questions to! :tup:

Don Vittorio
10-10-2012, 01:50 AM
So again, basically the only changes made are cosmetic/material based.

- aluminum faceplate
- LED colours changed
- rubber buttons
- rubber nobs
- rubber base feet
- better internal structure support of platters

This was what the big wait was for? No new functions or features at all as it seems.
Sorry, but what a waste of an opportunity.
I'm glad that the build quality has gotten better, but from the time I and many others were ready to buy and now, I have moved on to bigger and better things.
I'm sure many/most of the people that were hyped at the time of announcement have moved on as well.

I'm for sure very disappointed, as I was really jazzed for one at the time, then after the promise that there were a bunch of great new changes being made I thought well maybe it has turned into something even better. Nope, not really, same controller just built a bit better. Damn, oh well.

Interracial Tea
10-10-2012, 02:28 AM
So uhh, when's the release date?

Dj DRPX
10-10-2012, 06:41 AM
Release date is Mid-Q4. This was answered on the Behringer forum a little while ago. Can't wait for them to come out, I'm definitely getting 1 or two of the modular controllers, and I might check out getting the 4 channel controller to replace my S2, but that's unlikely.

Ellissentials
10-10-2012, 07:02 AM
I'm sure many/most of the people that were hyped at the time of announcement have moved on as well.

Indeed. I'm currently saving up for the Pioneer DDJ-T1.

These look great tho.

nem0nic
10-10-2012, 08:10 AM
...but can you confirm that it is close to being completed?
I can indeed.


Sorry, but what a waste of an opportunity.
Haters gonna hate I guess. I think it's safe to say that you aren't familiar with what is involved in actually making some of these changes or you wouldn't have said what you said. My personal feeling is that the ONLY feature that is truly important for these products IS the build quality, and I don't think I'm alone in that. But there are certainly a lot of cool new toys out there, and I can totally understand not wanting to wait.


So uhh, when's the release date?
Soon. Beyond that I wold hesitate to say. They'll be ready when they're ready.

MeowMix
10-10-2012, 08:38 AM
I like the original green/orange colors, not a big fan of the standard blue/red combo.

JonAvalon
10-10-2012, 08:55 AM
Honestly can't wait for the CMD Studio 4A to release, for the price its a no brainier for me.

punky
10-10-2012, 09:11 AM
I think pairing the DVS controller with two F1s and that four channel mixer modular controller would be sick.

punky
10-10-2012, 09:12 AM
What's the MAP on the CMD Studio?

nem0nic
10-10-2012, 12:01 PM
what's the map on the cmd studio?
$199 usd

JeffJensen
10-10-2012, 01:23 PM
I can indeed.

Good to hear!


Honestly can't wait for the CMD Studio 4A to release, for the price its a no brainier for me.

Agreed!


$199 usd

With that price, do you think we would have to pay a little more for a software upgrade for say Virtual DJ (if this was one of the companies that will be paired with it)?

JeffJensen
10-10-2012, 01:59 PM
So again, basically the only changes made are cosmetic/material based.

- aluminum faceplate
- LED colours changed
- rubber buttons
- rubber nobs
- rubber base feet
- better internal structure support of platters

I have moved on to bigger and better things. I'm sure many/most of the people that were hyped at the time of announcement have moved on as well.

As nem0nic state below, these are very big improvements.


My personal feeling is that the ONLY feature that is truly important for these products IS the build quality, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

You are not alone on that statement. This controller has now jumped up my list of possible purchases.

Right now I am torn between this and the DJC.4. The DJC.4 is a little ahead due to the balances outputs, but this guy is only going to be $199.99! Tough decision! :shrug:

I really just can't wait for the release of the paired software!

g-sep
10-10-2012, 03:13 PM
The cmd mm-1 paired with my Maschine, x1,and soon to be f1 will be techno-modular-improv-sexuality. Just saying...

Interracial Tea
10-10-2012, 03:22 PM
Haters gonna hate I guess. I think it's safe to say that you aren't familiar with what is involved in actually making some of these changes or you wouldn't have said what you said. My personal feeling is that the ONLY feature that is truly important for these products IS the build quality, and I don't think I'm alone in that. But there are certainly a lot of cool new toys out there, and I can totally understand not wanting to wait.

That's what I was guessing when I read the new announcement. It's basically a giant Behringer infrastructure change, isn't it? I assume this is just setting you guys up for the long game.



Soon. Beyond that I wold hesitate to say. They'll be ready when they're ready.
Oh okay. Just don't become the Half Life 2: Episode 3 of the DJ community.

nem0nic
10-10-2012, 05:07 PM
With that price, do you think we would have to pay a little more for a software upgrade for say Virtual DJ (if this was one of the companies that will be paired with it)?
Yes, like most controllers these will come with a reduced functionality (LE) version of the software, and to upgrade to the full version will require a payment.


It's basically a giant Behringer infrastructure change, isn't it? I assume this is just setting you guys up for the long game.
That's exactly what I wanted CMD to be for us. A legacy line of product that would be around for a long time. CMD lays the groundwork for Behringer to make an aggressive entry into the modern DJ market.


Oh okay. Just don't become the Half Life 2: Episode 3 of the DJ community.
Ha! Or Duke Nukem Forever. No, it's not like that.

punky
10-10-2012, 05:58 PM
I remember when we spoke a bit about your ambition for the CMD line. I really hope it works out, man. I'd love to see DJ controllers come down in cost. The S4 is a great piece of equipment, but I really don't think it should cost what it does.

login
02-18-2013, 01:18 PM
Any news on this?

ampnation
02-18-2013, 02:00 PM
Nemonic,

A while back I think I posted here my vision for a rack mount system which really works well for mobile DJ's who need to do a ton of setup in limited time. To that end, I envisioned a system of 1/3 rack units, similar to wireless mic receivers which are often 1/2 rack in width and 1u, but these units would be roughly 4 to 6u high. This would allow a mixer in the middle and two decks on either side. Most of the rack mount mixers are 4 channels minimum and have a lot of wasted space IMO. By shrinking them, perhaps taking cues from faderfox, and then providing separate mini-decks, all as components, one could provide modularity for those whose needs don't conform to what is provided in a all-in-one controller, many of which aren't suitable for 19" rack mount.

So, a) Is there going to be a rack mount kit for the CMD modular units?
b) Is the market for mobiles who prefer a 19" rack too small to accommodate?

And on a completely different subject... I like the s16 digital Snake idea, but the rest of my live rig is analog. Is there a chance Behringer could make a similar digital snake which uses ethernet cable for transmission, but has A/D and D/A converters at either end with balanced connections instead of AES only on the desk side?

nem0nic
02-20-2013, 10:16 PM
So, a) Is there going to be a rack mount kit for the CMD modular units?
b) Is the market for mobiles who prefer a 19" rack too small to accommodate?
There will probably not be a rack mount kit for the CMD controllers. Of course, if we hear from lots of users that this is something we need, that can change later on. The CMD module size does allow for rack mounting 3 of them (at 18" across), so it's not totally out of the question.

As for the digital snake question, I don't think there are plans to make a "headless" version that converts to analog at both ends. S16 is really there to compliment the X32 and the new digital mixers we announced at NAMM this year.

Waterbeat
02-21-2013, 08:21 AM
Are these controllers available now? Behringer's website still says "coming soon".

punky
02-21-2013, 09:34 AM
There will probably not be a rack mount kit for the CMD controllers. Of course, if we hear from lots of users that this is something we need, that can change later on. The CMD module size does allow for rack mounting 3 of them (at 18" across), so it's not totally out of the question.

As for the digital snake question, I don't think there are plans to make a "headless" version that converts to analog at both ends. S16 is really there to compliment the X32 and the new digital mixers we announced at NAMM this year.

That X32 looks SUPER beastly. I can't afford it but it looks glorious. A good step in the right direction for Behringer if they can get the build quality right.

nem0nic
02-21-2013, 12:00 PM
Are these controllers available now? Behringer's website still says "coming soon".
They're in manufacturing now. They'll start showing up in stores in March.

punky
02-21-2013, 01:05 PM
Glad to hear that Nem. We're all psyched to see them in the wild! I assume they'll be available at your friendly local Guitar Center?

nem0nic
02-22-2013, 07:43 AM
I don't know specifics, but they'll be available just about anywhere that sells Behringer.

punky
02-22-2013, 12:35 PM
Psyched to see them in the wild. Congrats, Nem. I know this was a big dream of yours.

Will MaXimal
02-22-2013, 12:44 PM
Pretty jealous some lucky guy got some for djing at the booth :(

KLH
02-22-2013, 12:53 PM
Slight OT.

Hey Nems, tell the mixer guys to put in balanced outputs across the Xenyx line... It'd kill the Mackie compact mixer market overnight.

Back on OT.

-KLH

punky
02-22-2013, 01:00 PM
I think a lot of them actually have balanced TRS outputs. I have a 1202 in my house.

DJ Highline
03-04-2013, 07:16 PM
Hey Nem...whats the dimensions of these controllers? And more specifically will they fit in the NI soft case that they have for the X1/F1 and/or is Behringer going to make something similar to protect these controllers?

punky
03-05-2013, 07:49 AM
Hey Nem...whats the dimensions of these controllers? And more specifically will they fit in the NI soft case that they have for the X1/F1 and/or is Behringer going to make something similar to protect these controllers?

Nem, correct me if I'm wrong but I think each one is half the size of a vinyl record sleeve such that you could use your old LP bags to carry them around?

nem0nic
03-05-2013, 08:06 AM
The CMD modular controllers are all 6" x 12", so 2 of them joined together are a perfect 12" x 12" square. So as Punky said, a pair will fit in a record bag (actually, you can put 2 pair bottom to bottom in a 50 record bag and they fit perfectly). This is bigger than an X1 / F1, so it won't fit in an NI bag.

punky
03-05-2013, 09:23 AM
I'm really psyched to see these, Nem. I hope to play on them at my local GC soon.

DJzrule
03-05-2013, 12:47 PM
Slight OT.

Hey Nems, tell the mixer guys to put in balanced outputs across the Xenyx line... It'd kill the Mackie compact mixer market overnight.

Back on OT.

-KLH

They've always had balanced XLR or 1/4" TRS outputs?

DJ Highline
03-06-2013, 08:07 AM
The CMD modular controllers are all 6" x 12", so 2 of them joined together are a perfect 12" x 12" square. So as Punky said, a pair will fit in a record bag (actually, you can put 2 pair bottom to bottom in a 50 record bag and they fit perfectly). This is bigger than an X1 / F1, so it won't fit in an NI bag.

Awesome...glad there was some logical thinking going on when deciding the dimensions. Having them fit in a record bag like that is awesome. I still think you should look into making a carrying case for single units as well. Looking forward to seeing these in the wild.

punky
03-06-2013, 10:04 AM
As a side note - another good thing about this is that all those old LP bags, that usually go for cheap at your local Guitar Center? Suddenly they're useful, and a great deal. Nem was really thinking of us, the DJs when he made this decision. He could've used wacky dimensions and then sold us a bag for $80 and a hardcase for $150. But instead he's letting us use equipment that already exists, and can be had for cheap.

nem0nic
03-07-2013, 12:01 PM
I have a bunch of old record bags, and that's exactly what I was thinking of when I laid the CMD controllers out. :)

punky
03-11-2013, 09:53 AM
I think my local GC has a bigass one for $40, which is obscenely cheap when you consider how expensive they were five years ago. If I end up being able to get one (and since my wife might be quitting her job soon that might be unlikely), I'll definitely get a bag to fit these bad boys.