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Kid Cassette
02-21-2012, 10:44 AM
Hi guys
I am wondering if we are born with musical talent enabling us to mix and produce music or it is something we can learn?
I have always been passionate about my tunage but I am hopeless on the decks and even more useless on production software (I have had Ableton installed on my laptop for months and never used it, because it was too complicated). I really want to start mixing and producing properly. I want to do it for my own pleasure and fun, I do not want to be a club Dj or do it for money.

Manu
02-21-2012, 10:48 AM
It's years of practice, especially for production. That stuff takes years to learn and then some more to perfect. Being passionate about it is certainly the best way to approach that, so you are starting on proper grounds... Stick around these boards and you are likely to learn some more on a daily basis.

Smallz
02-21-2012, 11:12 AM
Being born with musical talent is debatable, but the sooner you start, the easier you can pick up anything music-wise (theory, instruments, production, dj'ing, etc.). I started playing music way way young, so a lot of concepts are easy for me to grasp. Production is what I lack because I didn't start until around last year, so I'm fairly new.

Just pick up some tips and tricks, and practice practice practice.

Dj_4-$hure
02-21-2012, 05:56 PM
In my opinion there is a difference being gifted in dj, and production vs piano or a violin. In dj'ing and producing there is a learning curve, where a gifted pianist will already know what to do. I've seen some mentally challenged being challenged (no pun intended) to memorize every single key to a whole song, that he has just heard for the first time, and he memorized the whole thing, now that's what I call talent.

Somedj
02-21-2012, 06:35 PM
I think its something you can learn. When I started I didnt know how to do anything. But, I was taught, and then I practiced practiced practiced...........and.........practiced some more, lol. I also think that some of us are gifted in music and for those, it helps them that much more.

You just have to keep in mind that neither of those abilities you just asked about (djing and producing) come to anyone over night. You have to put in the time if you plan on getting good.

Ignotus
02-21-2012, 06:37 PM
i can view it on both sides, huge classical artists such as Mozart and what not, they had it, created music (in a sense) that didnt really "work" but it DID!... But on the other half, most these 22 year old "superstar" producers started when they where 12, and their parents grounded them to the piano and such...

i wish i woulda kept at music, but i had no idea idea i was going to turn this passionate for it.

the4thImpulse
02-21-2012, 06:40 PM
It's years of practice, especially for production. That stuff takes years to learn and then some more to perfect. Being passionate about it is certainly the best way to approach that, so you are starting on proper grounds... Stick around these boards and you are likely to learn some more on a daily basis.
Great answer, all it takes is practice. I have been around music (playing and preforming) most of my life so when I tried djing I was able to pick it up quickly and same goes with producing, If you have no musical backgroud then it will be harded to learn but by no means impossible.

thehadgi
02-21-2012, 06:59 PM
time + hard work = success

the trick is finding out what success means to you

LeFresh
02-21-2012, 09:06 PM
Hi guys
I am wondering if we are born with musical talent enabling us to mix and produce music or it is something we can learn?
I have always been passionate about my tunage but I am hopeless on the decks and even more useless on production software (I have had Ableton installed on my laptop for months and never used it, because it was too complicated)

I once thought Ableton was complicated so I never bothered using it. One day I thought to myself i'll never get better if I don't use it. For a week, all I did was watch ableton tutorials. After that week I had a better understanding of the software, and started applying the techniques I learned. I'm still learning Ableton. You just gotta be patient, it takes time.

Same for DJing, I was intimidated by mixing at first, so all I did was scratch (I'm not even good at scratching). I've been mixing for about a year, there's still plenty of room for improvement. You just gotta keep at it.

Manu
02-22-2012, 03:27 AM
Being born with musical talent is debatable, but the sooner you start, the easier you can pick up anything music-wise (theory, instruments, production, dj'ing, etc.).

"Genius is 14 hours work per day - Leonardo Da Vinci

Hygro
02-22-2012, 05:12 AM
i can view it on both sides, huge classical artists such as Mozart and what not, they had it, created music (in a sense) that didnt really "work" but it DID!... But on the other half, most these 22 year old "superstar" producers started when they where 12, and their parents grounded them to the piano and such...

i wish i woulda kept at music, but i had no idea idea i was going to turn this passionate for it.
Well, Mozart is an interesting example, because his father was one of the top music teachers in all of Europe and the time, and all his father did was drill Mozart in the ways of music theory and practice. He's the perfect case of someone who received ridiculous amounts of top quality training.

Ferryman
02-22-2012, 05:34 AM
Nature vs Nurture?

I think someone seems 'born with talent' because they're placed in front of something at a very early age and they pick it up instinctively, rather than based on a educational method. Hence it;s much harder to learn a new language when you are 40 years old, compared to when you are 2-3 years old.

It's never too late to start doing something, you'll just find it harder.

Read up on this, 'The Suzuki Method'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_method :)

Hygro
02-22-2012, 05:38 AM
Yeah the origin of talent is important, but not so much for, say, an 18 year old trying to pick up a new hobby. Everything takes lots of practice, so get started.

Ferryman
02-22-2012, 05:42 AM
Yeah the origin of talent is important, but not so much for, say, an 18 year old trying to pick up a new hobby. Everything takes lots of practice, so get started.

I read somewhere that it takes about 10,000 hours practice to become an expert in something.

Hygro
02-22-2012, 06:04 AM
I read somewhere that it takes about 10,000 hours practice to become an expert in something.
That's the premise of the book Outlier by Malcolm Gladwell.

However it's not exactly 10,000 hours. It's 10,000 hours over 10 years (rarely can be rushed), and with level-appropriate coaching. In other words, practicing doesn't make perfect, practicing perfection makes perfect. But yes, in short, it takes about 20 hours a week of practice for 10 years before you can expect to be a world class expert.

At my rate, I'd say I'm about 7 years away from being a world class composer and producer :D

Ferryman
02-22-2012, 06:13 AM
That's the premise of the book Outlier by Malcolm Gladwell.

However it's not exactly 10,000 hours. It's 10,000 hours over 10 years (rarely can be rushed), and with level-appropriate coaching. In other words, practicing doesn't make perfect, practicing perfection makes perfect. But yes, in short, it takes about 20 hours a week of practice for 10 years before you can expect to be a world class expert.

At my rate, I'd say I'm about 7 years away from being a world class composer and producer :D

13 years in, you must be pretty fucking good by now, though. :)

al_mcd
02-22-2012, 06:39 AM
In my opinion there is a difference being gifted in dj, and production vs piano or a violin. In dj'ing and producing there is a learning curve, where a gifted pianist will already know what to do. I've seen some mentally challenged being challenged (no pun intended) to memorize every single key to a whole song, that he has just heard for the first time, and he memorized the whole thing, now that's what I call talent.

I've seen that guy who can play any song back perfectly in any key after hearing it just once. Crazy that....

I think music theory once you learn properly the basics, talent will shine through eventually....It's not like you can be born with the talent to produce exceptional tracks on say ableton without practicing for hours everyday for years to learn how to use it properly.

I'm just starting to understand basic arrangements and how to put sounds together on ableton after a few months of messing around, and I gotta say now it's well fun for me, it's all about enjoying yourself in the studio, which is exactly what I'm doing at the minute. good times

Manu
02-22-2012, 06:43 AM
^^^ I assume you're talking about Derek Paravicini...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VeMWb4bocA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIigV7-kJk

Ferryman
02-22-2012, 06:48 AM
^^^ I assume you're talking about Derek Paravicini...


Do mega-savants really count, though? He is indeed, an exceptional instance of a musician - but in day-to-day terms he's definitely anomalous data in regards to achieving excellence in music.

Manu
02-22-2012, 06:53 AM
He's not a mega-savant, he's autistic. Basically his brains are somehow wired to compute musical information with every related key and related harmonics / subharmonics. He seems to be able to compute all the math behind that instantly. On the other hand, that dude is incapable of tying his shoelaces. Still, amazing in every respect and a great human being.

Ferryman
02-22-2012, 06:58 AM
He's not a mega-savant, he's autistic. Basically his brains are somehow wired to compute musical information with every related key and related harmonics / subharmonics. He seems to be able to compute all the math behind that instantly. On the other hand, that dude is incapable of tying his shoelaces. Still, amazing in every respect and a great human being.

Ah my mistake. I did see a documentary on him quite a while back. He played flight of the bumble bee on 2 pianos! :eek: Can't seem to find the footage, though.

Manu
02-22-2012, 07:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zenk3DTFs0

Dj_4-$hure
02-22-2012, 09:41 AM
Damm! Manu, you never fail to find these sort of things. And yeah, that's the guy I was talking about. By the way I'm listening to your blue pill mix as I type.:music:

Manu
02-22-2012, 09:57 AM
I watched a few documentaries about this guy, absolutely fascinating so I didn't have any problem finding it again ;). Amazing how he's playing it fast and precise yet puts his own touch on top..

Thanks for listening, hope you're enjoying it :)

thehadgi
02-22-2012, 10:53 AM
From what I've heard, this book I read is pretty similar to that Outliers book. Really good read. It's kind of what still motivates me in music

http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-World-Class-Performers-EverybodyElse/dp/product-description/1591842948
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QM7xy-VRL._SL500_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-big,TopRight,35,-73_OU01_AA300_.jpg

-J
02-22-2012, 11:04 AM
Being born with musical talent is debatable, but the sooner you start, the easier you can pick up anything music-wise (theory, instruments, production, dj'ing, etc.). I started playing music way way young, so a lot of concepts are easy for me to grasp. Production is what I lack because I didn't start until around last year, so I'm fairly new.

Just pick up some tips and tricks, and practice practice practice.

There was a debate on a bass forum about this some time ago, with someone saying there's no such thing as being "born" gifted musically, and that it's strictly learned. Considering all the different things that we are born with physically and mentally (some people are able to retain information better than others for example), to say it's impossible to be born with certain creative gifts (having a good ear, strong sense of rhythm, etc) doesn't make any sense (although it's more likely certain people are born with the ABILITY to better understand these things). I've heard musicians who are very technically competent and have been playing since they've been old enough to hold an instrument, yet they sound very mechanical. On the other hand I've heard different musicians with the same experience who just have "it", and the music has a feel to it that makes it that much better. I've heard some musicians who haven't been at it as long who have a better feel for the music than people who have. For example, it blew my mind to hear a drummer who's been playing for 30+ years say he struggles with a clave rhythm.

That said, being musically talented will HELP when it comes to DJing and production, because you listen for, and understand, all the little nuances that makes good music good and can fiddle and tweak and produce a solid song with minimal knowledge of the tools... still, it's not a requirement, you can learn the vast majority of things that it takes to make a good producer. You may not understand them on the level as someone who's "gifted", but that doesn't make anyone better or worse as a producer... you can have crap time and still produce a good song thanks to computers (although you can have crap time and play drums on an album for the same reasons now a days.)

-J
02-22-2012, 11:08 AM
He's not a mega-savant, he's autistic. Basically his brains are somehow wired to compute musical information with every related key and related harmonics / subharmonics. He seems to be able to compute all the math behind that instantly. On the other hand, that dude is incapable of tying his shoelaces. Still, amazing in every respect and a great human being.

That is the definition of savant syndrome, having a developmental disorder (such as Autism), yet excelling in a particular field that seems to be in contrast with their general abilities. He's most definitely a musical savant.

P.S. I think I saw a 60 minutes story on him YEARS ago, very cool stuff.

Manu
02-22-2012, 12:52 PM
I stand corrected then. I am a bit jealous as he has the ultimate pitch with harmonies. The amount of music math he can process is enormous. Like that sequence when he got in a train and started giving all the frequencies and related harmonics of the train engine after being asked to explain what he was hearing. I was like :err:

DjDisArm
02-22-2012, 01:12 PM
practice, practice, practice.

Somedj
02-22-2012, 01:17 PM
13 years in, you must be pretty fucking good by now, though. :)

Huh? Math? I think he's saying hes been composing/producing for 3 years.

-J
02-22-2012, 01:18 PM
I stand corrected then. I am a bit jealous as he has the ultimate pitch with harmonies. The amount of music math he can process is enormous. Like that sequence when he got in a train and started giving all the frequencies and related harmonics of the train engine after being asked to explain what he was hearing. I was like :err:

It's amazing what the human mind is capable of.

xyloft
02-22-2012, 01:40 PM
I firmly believe anyone can learn. it really is just finding the learning method that works best. Some people can simply read a book, others need to work through problems. It's like math or cooking. i hear people say alot "oh i can't do math, oh i can't cook" when they are both really just following directions/rules/laws and they could cook, or do math.... or even both at the same time! :O

As far as being born with skills? I can hear frequencies my friends cannot. (like the humming a CRT TV puts out) or those new "anti-kid" devices that put out a frequency that only kids are supposed to be able to hear. so I guess biologically, there could be some differences in the senses that could possibly benefit.

but this could be put into the left brained - right brained debate. where music falls onto the math side, and literature into the other. (dont remember which though).

-J
02-22-2012, 02:08 PM
I firmly believe anyone can learn. it really is just finding the learning method that works best. Some people can simply read a book, others need to work through problems. It's like math or cooking. i hear people say alot "oh i can't do math, oh i can't cook" when they are both really just following directions/rules/laws and they could cook, or do math.... or even both at the same time! :O

Cooking is more than JUST following directions. Baking you need to be precise, but good cooks need to be able to taste all the little differences different spices and what not add. Some people have the ability to taste all the extremes, some don't.


As far as being born with skills? I can hear frequencies my friends cannot. (like the humming a CRT TV puts out) or those new "anti-kid" devices that put out a frequency that only kids are supposed to be able to hear. so I guess biologically, there could be some differences in the senses that could possibly benefit.

This isn't the best example, everyone (mostly everyone) is born with 20-20K hearing, but it degrades over time, and it degrades differently for different people. Some people might have eroded away the parts of their ears that pick up those frequencies, some may not.

The fact remains, we're all wired differently. There are some things we learned as we grew up, there's some things that are just hard coded into our DNA. Some people excel at certain things that others do not.

Flat out, I've been around, and hear musicians who just have "it", and I've been around others who are very technically proficient, but they just don't have the "feel".

Ferryman
02-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Huh? Math? I think he's saying hes been composing/producing for 3 years.

Sorry - I read 20 years... not 20 hours :facepalm:

Manu
02-22-2012, 02:15 PM
It's amazing what the human mind is capable of.


I must admit I am gobsmacked every time I watch that guy, he has a genius flavour to his music. That dude has some amazing groove too. I consider him as the best human piano machine ever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhdGNSGjQSU

Smallz
02-22-2012, 02:39 PM
There was a debate on a bass forum about this some time ago, with someone saying there's no such thing as being "born" gifted musically, and that it's strictly learned. Considering all the different things that we are born with physically and mentally (some people are able to retain information better than others for example), to say it's impossible to be born with certain creative gifts (having a good ear, strong sense of rhythm, etc) doesn't make any sense (although it's more likely certain people are born with the ABILITY to better understand these things). I've heard musicians who are very technically competent and have been playing since they've been old enough to hold an instrument, yet they sound very mechanical. On the other hand I've heard different musicians with the same experience who just have "it", and the music has a feel to it that makes it that much better. I've heard some musicians who haven't been at it as long who have a better feel for the music than people who have. For example, it blew my mind to hear a drummer who's been playing for 30+ years say he struggles with a clave rhythm.

That said, being musically talented will HELP when it comes to DJing and production, because you listen for, and understand, all the little nuances that makes good music good and can fiddle and tweak and produce a solid song with minimal knowledge of the tools... still, it's not a requirement, you can learn the vast majority of things that it takes to make a good producer. You may not understand them on the level as someone who's "gifted", but that doesn't make anyone better or worse as a producer... you can have crap time and still produce a good song thanks to computers (although you can have crap time and play drums on an album for the same reasons now a days.)

I agree with this. I believe people can pick up music better than others not because they're just musically gifted but because of some biological processes they inherently developed that ultimately corresponds contiguously with music. Detecting sound and analyzing music is one thing whereas reproducing it is another. I know people who are great dancers because they can keep rhythm and structure the song into beats, but they can't play the piano to save their life, and vice versa.

Basically what i'm saying is that music is so complex that it takes more than "being born" with the gift of musical talent. You still have to work at it, and even then you won't be perfect on all aspects of music.

-J
02-22-2012, 03:41 PM
I agree with this. I believe people can pick up music better than others not because they're just musically gifted but because of some biological processes they inherently developed that ultimately corresponds contiguously with music. Detecting sound and analyzing music is one thing whereas reproducing it is another. I know people who are great dancers because they can keep rhythm and structure the song into beats, but they can't play the piano to save their life, and vice versa.

Basically what i'm saying is that music is so complex that it takes more than "being born" with the gift of musical talent. You still have to work at it, and even then you won't be perfect on all aspects of music.

Yea, I agree. You're not gonna fall out of the womb with the ability to play any instrument. Having a strong sense of rhythm may mean you can play certain types of drums "ok" from day one, but for most real instruments (:P) you still have to learn how to actually PLAY it.

Hygro
02-22-2012, 06:30 PM
13 years in, you must be pretty fucking good by now, though. :)Well, 3, as somedj said, but thanks still


He's not a mega-savant, he's autistic. Basically his brains are somehow wired to compute musical information with every related key and related harmonics / subharmonics. He seems to be able to compute all the math behind that instantly. On the other hand, that dude is incapable of tying his shoelaces. Still, amazing in every respect and a great human being.Just J already covered this but I wanted to dive in from a broader point which is that autism does not give anyone extra calculation powers or above average abilities in anything. Those who have that are lucky. When a "normal" person is smart, that intelligence plays out in a more "normal" way, but when an autistic person is smart, because of autism's limitations, it can be more pointed and extreme because that intelligence has to fit somewhere, so to speak. The autistic person practices a much more specialized and minor talent than a smart person with a broader spectrum of mental activity. So while this has us associating autism with, say, math genius, autism doesn't actually give anyone outright benefits.

DJArmani
02-22-2012, 07:17 PM
honestly u can learn learn all u want ... but at the end IT'S ALL IN THE HEART.

Hygro
02-22-2012, 07:48 PM
Sort of! But yeah the heart matters the most. Your hearts, and the hearts of those you are reaching. The latter is why skill matters, usually.

Anomoly
02-23-2012, 01:40 PM
Everyone has some genetic predispositions to things that they might have an advantage at HOWEVER there is a difference between that and becoming 'musically gifted' or 'gifted' at anything

I've read four great books on the subject (yes I actually read all four)


Bounce - Matthew Syed
Talent is overrated - Daniel Coyle
Outliers - Malcom Gladwell
The Talent Code - Geoff Colvin


To save you some time I ranked them above. But i can break all the books down for you because the all basically have the same message (also because I know most of you won't take the time to read the books lol)


Talent is not 'born' it's grown through hours and hours of practice

If you want an exact number it's about 10 years or 10,000 hours to become an expert in anything
And it's not just 'practice' it's 'perfect' practice or 'purposeful' practice

which is:
Practice that has to continuously push the level of comfort so that each session takes the participant to a new level.

Anyhow there is always some nature... but nurture plays a much bigger roll when it comes to expert or professional level talent.