Software DJ's- Real DJ's or 12 year olds with toys?

[Archon]

so, i searched the forum but didnt find this age old "mac vs pc" type debate. are people who use controllers like the everpopular toy the numark mixtrack real DJ's? i personally believe that's a slippery slope. i think someone who downloaded virtual DJ and makes mixes with that is not a real DJ. having software makes you as much of a DJ as playing Need for Speed makes you a street racer. i think computer DJing isn't NEARLY as hard as DJing with even CDJs. and i think that anyone who uses a controller and software is still a DJ, but not a true DJ. I think most DJ's that dont use controllers agree with me. now, is software DJing a bad thing? no not at all. but you dont get mad DJ AM respect for mixing well while staring at a waveform and hitting a sync button.
discuss..

-Archon

[Raindance Rob]

no its defo not real DJing & its whats killing vinyl for example. anyone & their cat can mix using software iv tried it & CDJs & imo both are far too easy & take away any skill thats involved, imo vinyl FTW & fook the rest :D

[Rick_N]

I would vote no, but it is a slippery slope. Even tho Im kind of a vinyl purist. I only use dvs for tracks that arent being released on vinyl anymore or that I cant get easily. I wish some big name artists would put vinyl only tracks out there again. Maybe it would help vinyl have a comeback. Who knows but we all know this thread is gonna become a bunch of bikkering pretty soon lol.

[silentsounds]

Elitist attitudes FTL

:wang:

[Raindance Rob]

I would vote no, but it is a slippery slope. Even tho Im kind of a vinyl purist. I only use dvs for tracks that arent being released on vinyl anymore or that I cant get easily. I wish some big name artists would put vinyl only tracks out there again. Maybe it would help vinyl have a comeback. Who knows but we all know this thread is gonna become a bunch of bikkering pretty soon lol.

i suppose iv been lucky in that way as most of the tunes i wanted that werent on vinyl, a mate had produced & he gave me permission to get em pressed on dubplate. it wasnt cheap to get em done but was defo worth it

[silentsounds]

no its defo not real DJing & its whats killing vinyl for example. anyone & their cat can mix using software iv tried it & CDJs & imo both are far too easy & take away any skill thats involved, imo vinyl FTW & fook the rest :D

AFAIK, DJing is the art of mixing two tracks seamlessly. Why does it matter what medium you use?

[Raindance Rob]

so theres an art to pressing sync with a mouse then for example ? nowt you or anyone else ever says will make me think that thats part of the art of DJing

[DJNR]

Oh man, this topic was huge in DJF 1.0

This is a really hard topic to discuss, only because the definition for many people in terms of what a "DJ" is has changed over the years. Back when I first started DJing, I used to think the exact same way you do. I believed that people who used controllers weren't "real" DJs for many reasons I won't discuss. As I progressed more through my DJ career I realized one thing: a DJ is someone who can make people dance. I don't know if you have ever read the book Last Night a DJ saved my Life, but in the first opening pages they explain how even the earliest of tribal singers could be considered DJs because they replicated songs that were popular at the time and made people dance. How this goal is achieved honestly doesn't matter in my opinion.

Now, how SKILLED a DJ is can certainly be based on what gear they own and how they use it. Sure, the person using the Mixtrack + Sync might not be as talented as the guy who dedicates themselves to turntablism, and that would result in them not being taken seriously. Similarly, the way that you use the software can dictate the way you are viewed in terms of skill. For example, if you use Traktor just for the sync function to get two beats matched, where the hell is the skill? However, if you are someone like DJ Shiftee who is a turntablist but also uses several controllers to use Traktor to it's fullest extent, you really open the doors to the next level of DJing.

In your post you jump around with your problems with software and to controllers; which one is it? One or the other, or both?


TL;DR - DJing is making people dance and sharing music with others. The skill of the DJ varies on your own integrity when using the gear provided.

[silentsounds]

so theres an art to pressing sync with a mouse then for example ? nowt you or anyone else ever says will make me think that thats part of the art of DJing

That's not what I said. I said mixing two tracks seamlessly is the ultimate goal. The medium you use shouldn't be that much of an issue.

[DJNR]

no its defo not real DJing & its whats killing vinyl for example. anyone & their cat can mix using software iv tried it & CDJs & imo both are far too easy & take away any skill thats involved, imo vinyl FTW & fook the rest :D

What's killing vinyl is it's own impracticality when compared to the production and distribution methods of other mediums...

[Raindance Rob]

That's not what I said. I said mixing two tracks seamlessly is the ultimate goal. The medium you use shouldn't be that much of an issue.

even if the medium is pressing sync ?

[Raindance Rob]

What's killing vinyl is it's own impracticality when compared to the production and distribution methods of other mediums...

sure pressing vinyl is expensive, iv looked into it & cant afford to atm sadly :( however the rewards if you can afford it are well worth it imo, for example the feel & sound of vinyl cant be beaten imo

[silentsounds]

even if the medium is pressing sync ?

Absolutely. If someone can rock a club or venue just by pressing Sync, what's the matter?

[DJNR]

even if the medium is pressing sync ?

Yes, even if the medium is pressing sync.

You don't need to be skilled to be a DJ, you need to be skilled to be an advanced DJ that will allow you to be more creative.

[Raindance Rob]

i beg to differ that doesnt make you a DJ, it makes you a button pusher lol

[DJNR]

i beg to differ that doesnt make you a DJ, it makes you a button pusher lol

With that logic, then putting on a record makes you a "record player".

As I mentioned in my longer post, the definition of a "DJ" is different for everyone.

[silentsounds]

i beg to differ that doesnt make you a DJ, it makes you a button pusher lol

As opposed to someone who slides the pitch control up and down.

[Raindance Rob]

With that logic, then putting on a record makes you a "record player".

As I mentioned in my longer post, the definition of a "DJ" is different for everyone.

no you'v missed the point completely. with vinyl you have to cue up the records & get them in time for example, with sync you dont you just press a button

[Raindance Rob]

As opposed to someone who slides the pitch control up and down.

you have to touch the records

[silentsounds]

no you'v missed the point completely. with vinyl you have to cue up the records & get them in time for example, with sync you dont you just press a button

Lol, you're basically saying DJing = ability to beat match by ear and that's it. Anyone who doesn't do that is not a DJ. Do you refuse to listen to mixes made by DJs using controllers?

[DJNR]

no you'v missed the point completely. with vinyl you have to cue up the records & get them in time for example, with sync you dont you just press a button

I still have to cue in Traktor, I still have to get them in time. I don't use sync. There is no single button I press to do what I do. What's wrong with software then?

Edit: Do you even know why software like Serato was originally developed?

[Raindance Rob]

Lol, you're basically saying DJing = ability to beat match by ear and that's it. Anyone who doesn't do that is not a DJ. Do you refuse to listen to mixes made by DJs using controllers?

no i didnt say that, my point was how is pressing sync beat matching ? i dont listen to much new music which is besides the point, however i do listen to some sets that have been mixed on a controller yes

[Raindance Rob]

I still have to cue in Traktor, I still have to get them in time. I don't use sync. There is no single button I press to do what I do. What's wrong with software then?

Edit: Do you even know why software like Serato was originally developed?

iv tried software i wouldnt even be having this debate if i hadnt cuz otherwise how would i know ? plus it'd be pretty pointless if i had idea what using it is like

no why was it originally made ?

[DJNR]

no i didnt say that, my point was how is pressing sync beat matching ? i dont listen to much new music which is besides the point, however i do listen to some sets that have been mixed on a controller yes

What is your definition of a DJ then? Because you keep hovering over several ambiguous points. Sync isn't beatmatching. I don't know why that matters.

[silentsounds]

no i didnt say that, my point was how is pressing sync beat matching ? i dont listen to much new music which is besides the point, however i do listen to some sets that have been mixed on a controller yes

And when you listen to those sets do you think, "hey, this guy is so not a DJ"?

How is sync not beat matching? Sync matches the the tempo of two tracks, albeit with the press of a single button. You still have to drop the track somewhere, you still have to listen to make sure beats are on point and not drifting.

[DJNR]

iv tried software i wouldnt even be having this debate if i hadnt cuz otherwise how would i know ? plus it'd be pretty pointless if i had idea what using it is like

no why was it original made ?

What???

Serato was originally made to lower the stress of having to carry pounds of records to play a gig by making them digital and thus more accessible and convenient. Does this make software bad? Should we have to lug records everywhere to be a DJ?

[Raindance Rob]

What is your definition of a DJ then? Because you keep hovering over several ambiguous points. Sync isn't beatmatching. I don't know why that matters.

well obviously it is technically DJing however its not real DJing imo, in the sense that theres no skill involved

[Raindance Rob]

Sync matches the the tempo of two tracks, albeit with the press of a single button.

my point exactly, it does it for you with the push of a button

[DJNR]

But it's still DJing nonetheless. Just because they aren't skilled, doesn't make them any less of a DJ. One is skilled, one isn't.

[silentsounds]

well obviously it is technically DJing however its not real DJing imo, in the sense that theres no skill involved

You still do everything with software that you would with CDJs and TTs. The only difference is that there's no physical media and you can press sync if you want. You still have to cue, you still have to control EQs and gains, you still have to pitch bend to prevent drifting, etc. Your argument keeps coming back to this fact that if you don't beat match by ear and use a slider in the process, you are not a "real" DJ.

[Raindance Rob]

What???

Serato was originally made to lower the stress of having to carry pounds of records to play a gig by making them digital and thus more accessible and convenient. Does this make software bad? Should we have to lug records everywhere to be a DJ?

im not saying that at all, its not that so much that i have a problem its that theres no skill involved

[DJNR]

im not saying that at all, its not that so much that i have a problem its that theres no skill involved

Skill involved using software?

[ChrisHynds]

seriously get a life, how many times are we gonna see these bullshit topics come up, who cares, really?? There is a lot more to Dj-ing than beat matching, personally Im not a fan of controllers & computer mixing etc but you have to face facts no matter how much you dont like them, they are out there and there is nothing you can do about that. I am and always will be oldksool, I need the physical feel of mixing, vinyl or Cdjs but If I go to a venue where the Dj is rocking it, it doesnt matter wether he's using, a controller,computer or vinyl, if he knows how to use his set up, he deserves to be rocking it.

Its pretty obvious when a Dj is just syncing and mixing breakdown to breakdown, there is no energy created and therefore he will come across as a standard jock, If you are pissed that he's getting a gig and you are not, then you need to improve your game, work with what you have got and improve your skills, "the cream will always rise to the top"

BTW this is not a personal attack on any1 in this thread Im just feed up reading the same old shit over and over again, this place can be worse than a womens group sometimes

[Raindance Rob]

But it's still DJing nonetheless. Just because they aren't skilled, doesn't make them any less of a DJ. One is skilled, one isn't.

which imo means their a fake DJ, cuz they dont have to have or use any skill what so ever

[silentsounds]

im not saying that at all, its not that so much that i have a problem its that theres no skill involved

Sync makes beat matching easier when using software, no argument there. What other skills do you have in comparison to someone with a controller and software?

[Raindance Rob]

You still do everything with software that you would with CDJs and TTs. The only difference is that there's no physical media and you can press sync if you want. You still have to cue, you still have to control EQs and gains, you still have to pitch bend to prevent drifting, etc. Your argument keeps coming back to this fact that if you don't beat match by ear and use a slider in the process, you are not a "real" DJ.

its far from the same as with vinyl, like i said iv tried all three

[DJNR]

which imo means their a fake DJ, cuz they dont have to have or use any skill what so ever

They still make people dance, they still share music, therefore they are still a DJ. Skill doesn't classify a DJ, it classifies their creativity. It doesn't make them fake, it makes them less skilled.

[DJNR]

There is a lot more to Dj-ing than beat matching, personally Im not a fan of controllers & computer mixing etc but you have to face facts no matter how much you dont like them, they are out there and there is nothing you can do about that. I am and always will be oldksool, I need the physical feel of mixing, vinyl or Cdjs but If I go to a venue where the Dj is rocking it, it doesnt matter wether he's using, a controller,computer or vinyl, if he knows how to use his set up, he deserves to be rocking it.

Its pretty obvious when a Dj is just syncing and mixing breakdown to breakdown, there is no energy created and therefore he will come across as a standard jock, If you are pissed that he's getting a gig and you are not, then you need to improve your game, work with what you have got and improve your skills, "the cream will always rise to the top"

Truth; rep'd. :tup:

[Raindance Rob]

Sync makes beat matching easier when using software, no argument there. What other skills do you have in comparison to someone with a controller and software?

im not the kind of person thats gonna start being themselves up by saying im so good at this, that & the other with DJing

[Raindance Rob]

They still make people dance, they still share music, therefore they are still a DJ. Skill doesn't classify a DJ, it classifies their creativity. It doesn't make them fake, it makes them less skilled.

one word springs to mind talentless. btw i wasnt saying you are, i just mean software DJing in general

[silentsounds]

im not the kind of person thats gonna start being themselves up by saying im so good at this, that & the other with DJing

So don't. But do tell us what other skills you possess that someone using software may not. You've mentioned a couple of times how someone who uses vinyl is more skilled beyond the beat matching issue, so I'd like to know what other skills these are.

[Raindance Rob]

Truth; rep'd. :tup:

so why do you keep commenting then ? lol

[Raindance Rob]

So don't. But do tell us what other skills you possess that someone using software may not. You've mentioned a couple of times how someone who uses vinyl is more skilled beyond the beat matching issue, so I'd like to know what other skills these are.

have you tried mixing with vinyl before ? it just seems that you havent from your comments thats all

[deejayjsin]

seriously get a life, how many times are we gonna see these bullshit topics come up, who cares, really?? There is a lot more to Dj-ing than beat matching, personally Im not a fan of controllers & computer mixing etc but you have to face facts no matter how much you dont like them, they are out there and there is nothing you can do about that. I am and always will be oldksool, I need the physical feel of mixing, vinyl or Cdjs but If I go to a venue where the Dj is rocking it, it doesnt matter wether he's using, a controller,computer or vinyl, if he knows how to use his set up, he deserves to be rocking it.

Its pretty obvious when a Dj is just syncing and mixing breakdown to breakdown, there is no energy created and therefore he will come across as a standard jock, If you are pissed that he's getting a gig and you are not, then you need to improve your game, work with what you have got and improve your skills, "the cream will always rise to the top"

BTW this is not a personal attack on any1 in this thread Im just feed up reading the same old shit over and over again, this place can be worse than a womens group sometimes
:bing: Very well said.

[DJNR]

one word springs to mind talentless. btw i wasnt saying you are, i just mean software DJing in general

Replace the word "skill" with "talent" in that post, and it still makes sense and my argument still stands.

I use software, therefore I am talentless I guess.

[silentsounds]

have you tried mixing with vinyl before ? it just seems that you havent form your comments thats all

Regardless, you keep side stepping the question being asked.

I've not used vinyl. I have been a CD based DJ primarily.

[Raindance Rob]

Regardless, you keep side stepping the question being asked.

I've not used vinyl. I have been a CD based DJ primarily.

then to be fair how would you know what vinyl is like ?

[DJNR]

then to be fair how would you know what vinyl is like ?

I started on vinyl and I know exactly how it feels and works. I use my decks to this very day, digitally now of course. Am I skilled? Or did I used to be skilled and now I have lost all of it?

[silentsounds]

then to be fair how would you know what vinyl is like ?

So do tell us, what are these other skills you possess?


I know because I know a lot of DJs here who do use it. And while it does take some getting used to, it;s not very different from using CDs. But do tell us, what are these other skills beyond beat matching.

[Interracial Tea]

Congrats Raindance Rob, you are the worst type of DJ. Fuck the elitist 'real DJ' bullshit.

It doesn't matter what you use to mix. All that matters when it comes to DJing is getting people to have a good time. You can use iTunes, you can use a controller, you can use Youtube for all I care. If people are dancing, then you're a good DJ. That's ALL that matters. It's like complaining that a painter isn't an artist because they used Crayons instead of acrylic paint made by the Maasai people in Africa. If you can still make something that looks fucking amazing, you're a painter. You're nothing less than that because you used Crayons.

[Raindance Rob]

I started on vinyl and I know exactly how it feels and works. I use my decks to this very day, digitally now of course. Am I skilled? Or did I used to be skilled and now I have lost all of it?

lol man your twisting my words. i have no problem with time coded vinyl after all your still using records

[DJNR]

lol man your twisting my words. i have no problem with time coded vinyl after all your still using records

I'm not twisting your words. I am still using software, which is one of your main gripes mentioned in your original post.

[silentsounds]

lol man your twisting my words. i have no problem with time coded vinyl after all your still using records

Hahahaha. Wow. Now we've gone from not being able to beat match as being the measuring stick to utilizing records.

Fuck outta here.. haha

[Raindance Rob]

So do tell us, what are these other skills you possess?


I know because I know a lot of DJs here who do use it. And while it does take some getting used to, it;s not very different from using CDs. But do tell us, what are these other skills beyond beat matching.

as i have already said using the sync button isint beat matching imo

[Raindance Rob]

Hahahaha. Wow. Now we've gone from not being able to beat match as being the measuring stick to utilizing records.

Fuck outta here.. haha

where did i ever say that using sync was the same as using or that i dont like time coded vinyl ?

[DJNR]

where did i ever say that using sync was the same as using time coded vinyl ?

You didn't. You said using software doesn't make you a real DJ, and timecode vinyl is still controlling a digital medium. (EG. Software.)

[Raindance Rob]

I'm not twisting your words. I am still using software, which is one of your main gripes mentioned in your original post.

ok maybe i didnt make my point clear, using sync is my main gripe

[silentsounds]

where did i ever say that using sync was the same as using or that i dont like time coded vinyl ?

The first two pages you've gone on about how not beat matching = no skill = not a real DJ.

So what about people who use Sync while using records? Are they real enough for you?

[Raindance Rob]

You didn't. You said using software doesn't make you a real DJ, and timecode vinyl is still controlling a digital medium. (EG. Software.)

yeah as in using software alone

[deejayjsin]

as i have already said using the sync button isint beat matching imo
All you keep talking about is beat matching, but you keep avoiding the question, WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH VINYL THAN SOMEONE USING CDJ'S OR A CONTROLLER CAN'T?

[Raindance Rob]

The first two pages you've gone on about how not beat matching = no skill = not a real DJ.

So what about people who use Sync while using records? Are they real enough for you?

no cuz sync is still cheating, if you can beat match what do you need sync for ?

[Raindance Rob]

All you keep talking about is beat matching, but you keep avoiding the question, WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH VINYL THAN SOMEONE USING CDJ'S OR A CONTROLLER CAN'T?

beat match on my own without any help from a computer

[DJNR]

beat match on my own without any help from a computer

You act like beat matching is hard. I don't even know why this is a determining factor if someone is a DJ or not.

I beatmatch with my controller without using sync.

[silentsounds]

beat match on my own without any help from a computer

But you both ultimately match the tempo of two tracks. One pressed a button, the other moved a slider.

[DJNR]

But you both ultimately match the tempo of two tracks. One pressed a button, the other moved a slider.

Neither of which are terribly difficult. I must be a Pro DJ. Stoked.

[Raindance Rob]

You act like beat matching is hard. I don't even know why this is a determining factor if someone is a DJ or not.

I beatmatch with my controller without using sync.

i wasnt saying that its hard, getting unneeded help is cheating

[silentsounds]

You act like beat matching is hard. I don't even know why this is a determining factor if someone is a DJ or not.

I beatmatch with my controller without using sync.

Exactly. People behave like beat matching is extremely hard. To some people perhaps, but for most people, practice a bit and you get the hang of it. I recall Marc S. has mentioned before how his son picked up beat matching when he was like 6 or 7 years old.

[deejayjsin]

beat match on my own without any help from a computer

so what your saying is that as long as someone can beat match with vinyl, that makes them a "real" dj? and no other skill/talent is needed?

[Raindance Rob]

But you both ultimately match the tempo of two tracks. One pressed a button, the other moved a slider.

iv already answered that one lol

[BuddyUK]

Yes lugging around a laptop full of shit quality digital music and a load of electronic gadgets sure took away the terrible inconvenience of carrying a bag of records with you, what a load of of bollocks. Where are we now, Beatport and iTunes etc. having a stranglehold on the distribution of music. The independents virtually wiped out and any mug with a computer and bittorrent or whatever being able to download thousands of tracks and the software an create a (supposedly) perfect mix at literally the push of a button. Just wait till the anti-piracy laws kick in and the 'entertainment corporations' buy out and control all the digital distributors, great for them selling lliterally nothing of value for $$$

Also any challenge in actually DJing with digital, any skill, any fun? If all that matters is making people dance just play fcuking ABBA records all night mate.

[DJWhoQE]

Oh for chrissakes, this bullshit again? I could go on and on about how analog purists are elitist dinosaurs and auto-syncing laptop DJ's are mostly undedicated attention-whores and blah blah blah blah blah.

But there's no point.

Regardless of how "herdy derr derr they took 'er jerbs!" anyone feels, the reality is that "digital DJ's" are taking over. No stopping it. So stop whining and get to practicing, because it's only going to get harder to stand out.

[Raindance Rob]

so what your saying is that as long as someone can beat match with vinyl, that makes them a "real" dj? and no other skill/talent is needed?

of cause not, what i am saying is how is pressing sync anything other then getting a computer to do it for you ?

[Raindance Rob]

Yes lugging around a laptop full of shit quality digital music and a load of electronic gadgets sure took away the terrible inconvenience of carrying a bag of records with you, what a load of of bollocks. Where are we now, Beatport and iTunes etc. having a stranglehold on the distribution of music. The independents virtually wiped out and any mug with a computer and bittorrent or whatever being able to download thousands of tracks and the software an create a (supposedly) perfect mix at literally the push of a button. Just wait till the anti-piracy laws kick in and the 'entertainment corporations' buy out and control all the digital distributors, great for them selling lliterally nothing of value for $$$

Also any challenge in actually DJing with digital, any skill, any fun? If all that matters is making people dance just play fcuking ABBA records all night mate.

well said

[DJNR]

Yes lugging around a laptop full of shit quality digital music and a load of electronic gadgets sure took away the terrible inconvenience of carrying a bag of records with you, what a load of of bollocks.

I was really referring to "then." Obviously things have changed, I agree with you on that.


Also any challenge in actually DJing with digital, any skill, any fun? If all that matters is making people dance just play fcuking ABBA records all night mate.

Okay? :shrug: It makes you a DJ nonetheless if that's what people dance to, but it doesn't give you any particular advanced DJ skill set or the potential for greater creativity.

[silentsounds]

Yes lugging around a laptop full of shit quality digital music and a load of electronic gadgets sure took away the terrible inconvenience of carrying a bag of records with you, what a load of of bollocks. Where are we now, Beatport and iTunes etc. having a stranglehold on the distribution of music. The independents virtually wiped out and any mug with a computer and bittorrent or whatever being able to download thousands of tracks and the software an create a (supposedly) perfect mix at literally the push of a button. Just wait till the anti-piracy laws kick in and the 'entertainment corporations' buy out and control all the digital distributors, great for them selling lliterally nothing of value for $$$

Also any challenge in actually DJing with digital, any skill, any fun? If all that matters is making people dance just play fcuking ABBA records all night mate.

The main theme some of us are pushing here is that the medium you use generally doesn't matter. Be it a controller, vinyl, CDs, TTs with a DVS. It just gets frustrating when people generalize anyone who uses a laptop and a controller as having a ton of torrented music and creating mixes with the press of a single button.

[Interracial Tea]

Let's be real. We all know what THE GREATEST DJ (BETTER THAN TIESTO) ALIVE Raindance Rob is trying to say. Using sync makes you less of a DJ than those who don't use sync. Let's now all continue to tell him how stupid that is.

[Raindance Rob]

The main theme some of us are pushing here is that the medium you use generally doesn't matter. Be it a controller, vinyl, CDs, TTs with a DVS. It just gets frustrating when people generalize anyone who uses a laptop and a controller as having a ton of torrented music and creating mixes with the press of a single button.

to be fair tho nine times out of ten thats the case, although there is exceptions

[Raindance Rob]

Let's be real. We all know what THE GREATEST DJ (BETTER THAN TIESTO) ALIVE Raindance Rob is trying to say. Using sync makes you less of a DJ than those who don't use sync. Let's now all continue to tell him how stupid that is.

lol i never said that im the greatest DJ alive

[DJNR]

Let's also keep in mind that Raindance Rob wasn't the one who started this thread :P

[Raindance Rob]

Let's also keep in mind that Raindance Rob wasn't the one who started this thread :P

at the end of the day we all have our opinions & we're all entitled to em. theres just no need to start being twats about it

[BuddyUK]

I'm literally sick of having this argument, do what you fucking like i don't care anymore, the passed is the past, your mass abandonment of vinyl, mainly by Americans BTW did irreperable damage to the ability of real talented producers to make music, the talented DJ's to DJ and severely compromised the independence of the 'EDM Scene' for what it is. I've been saying it for more than half decade here now and you've never listened, all you want is more gadgets, more shortcuts, less effort and fcuk ecerything else.

I will buy and suport vinyl till I fcuking die and your digital files have all the vakue of an .xls or.doc file. i.e. zero. and they sound like shit for a whole multitude of reasons.

[TheFrenchWay]

The sync button is like when a Hip-Hop artist chooses words like F***, the n word and pointless facts about himself. It's quick, kind of effective and seems lazy BUT he is still a RAPPER in the end.

[Raindance Rob]

I'm literally sick of having this argument, do what you fucking like i don't care anymore, the passed is the past, your mass abandonment of vinyl, mainly by Americans BTW did irreperable damage to the ability of real talented producers to make music, the talented DJ's to DJ and severely compromised the independence of the 'EDM Scene' for what it is. I've been saying it for more than half decade here now and you've never listened, all you want is more gadgets, more shortcuts, less effort and fcuk ecerything else.

I will buy and suport vinyl till I fcuking die and your digital files have all the vakue of an .xls or.doc file. i.e. zero. and they sound like shit for a whole multitude of reasons.

i second that

[moyo wilde]

it doesn't make them not a dj. it does make them not a good dj.

i think the thing that separates the software dj, that can only rock their software, is that if faced with other gear they won't be able to make it do what it do. the same could be said for the other mediums, but i think a vinyl dj, a cd dj, or a dvs dj, would be able to pull off a passable job with other gear. a software dj, that can only use software is a complete noob when faced with other equipment.

the other problem i find, correct me if i am wrong, is that there is no industry standard for software or midi controller.

[DJNR]

I'm literally sick of having this argument, do what you fucking like i don't care anymore, the passed is the past, your mass abandonment of vinyl, mainly by Americans BTW did irreperable damage to the ability of real talented producers to make music, the talented DJ's to DJ and severely compromised the independence of the 'EDM Scene' for what it is. I've been saying it for more than half decade here now and you've never listened, all you want is more gadgets, more shortcuts, less effort and fcuk ecerything else.

I will buy and suport vinyl till I fcuking die and your digital files have all the vakue of an .xls or.doc file. i.e. zero. and they sound like shit for a whole multitude of reasons.

Woah man, relax. No need to start with hate. I support vinyl too and I still buy it.

[silentsounds]

I'm literally sick of having this argument, do what you fucking like i don't care anymore, the passed is the past, your mass abandonment of vinyl, mainly by Americans BTW did irreperable damage to the ability of real talented producers to make music, the talented DJ's to DJ and severely compromised the independence of the 'EDM Scene' for what it is. I've been saying it for more than half decade here now and you've never listened, all you want is more gadgets, more shortcuts, less effort and fcuk ecerything else.

I will buy and suport vinyl till I fcuking die and your digital files have all the vakue of an .xls or.doc file. i.e. zero. and they sound like shit for a whole multitude of reasons.

I agree and have maintained that people should do what they want and use whatever medium they are most comfortable with. But let's not generalize every software DJ as being talentless, etc.

[Somedj]

wow.... amazing that THIS topic is back... AGAIN....

Btw, Im a math purist.... I use an abacus. Fuck all of you calculator-easy-way-out bitches. Your math doesnt matter as much as my math because because you get to your answers using updated technology and not the old better way (btw its better because its the old way)......

[DJHoss]

I use VDJ and a Numark Total Control (Yes, I did pay for VDJ PRO). The total control came with Traktor LE and it did not fit me at all, and I ponied up for VDJ. I love it. It's far more useful to me than Traktor, and it makes more sense to me anyways. The TotalControl was the only controller that fit my budget at the time, but within the next year or so, I am going to invest in the Denon Mc-6000.

To me, the only noobs that use VDJ are the ones who cracked it and don't know what they are doing(Cheapies that call themselves DJ's). I am going on three years now with VDJ and it has served its purpose. Call me a fool, or whatever yall want to, but software is the new thing for aspiring DJ's because you can carry such a massive library of music with you, and be able to quickly mix it with a good controller. You can organize songs more in depth than you could using a vinyl or CD collection as well. Instead of carting maybe 1500 or so songs on vinyl or CD's to a gig, why not bring along 30,000, or 50,000? You'd be more prepared, more likely to please the crowd, and more likely to be booked for other gigs if you please the crowd that well.

Coming from me, a 14 year old aspiring DJ, it may not mean much, just because "I'm 14, have no real world experience, and imma neg rep him for using software because he sounds like a noob". But, I do think that software DJ'ing is becoming more of the standard now days because of its extreme versatility. You can control it with whatever you want via timecode or MiDi, and you can add effects and samples and cue things quickly, and it all adds up to a great performance. In terms of skills, I do think if you're using a controller/timecodes with the software, it does take some skill to mix and cue in things and be quick on the faders.

But, I do agree that people using WinAmp or even worse, Windows Media Player should classify themselves as jukeboxes, because they do little work besides make a playlist and set up some terrible speakers. As far as the sync button, I do agree it shouldn't have been invented. I for one do not use the sync button, I manually beatmatch, and by ear too, not just the tempo reader. Because, it can be wrong at times. And as far as file quality goes, as long as you use a legit source with high quality MP3 (320KB) files, you should be sounding great. It's the digital to analog conversion between your computer and the mixer that degrades sound quality the most, as well as how many connections you have going everywhere.

I do admit that vinyl does sound just a bit better, just because its such a pure source, and everything's analog. But, I'd rather have just a slight bit less quality for the ablility to have 40,000 MP3's on site as a mobile DJ, such as myself. And, the average Joe's isn't going to be able to tell the difference on a good sounding system. But, these are only my two cents. :tup:

[Boomcie]

I use VDJ and a Numark Total Control (Yes, I did pay for VDJ PRO). The total control came with Traktor LE and it did not fit me at all, and I ponied up for VDJ. I love it. It's far more useful to me than Traktor, and it makes more sense to me anyways. The TotalControl was the only controller that fit my budget at the time, but within the next year or so, I am going to invest in the Denon Mc-6000.

To me, the only noobs that use VDJ are the ones who cracked it and don't know what they are doing(Cheapies that call themselves DJ's). I am going on three years now with VDJ and it has served its purpose. Call me a fool, or whatever yall want to, but software is the new thing for aspiring DJ's because you can carry such a massive library of music with you, and be able to quickly mix it with a good controller. You can organize songs more in depth than you could using a vinyl or CD collection as well. Instead of carting maybe 1500 or so songs on vinyl or CD's to a gig, why not bring along 30,000, or 50,000? You'd be more prepared, more likely to please the crowd, and more likely to be booked for other gigs if you please the crowd that well.

Coming from me, a 14 year old aspiring DJ, it may not mean much, just because "I'm 14, have no real world experience, and imma neg rep him for using software because he sounds like a noob". But, I do think that software DJ'ing is becoming more of the standard now days because of its extreme versatility. You can control it with whatever you want via timecode or MiDi, and you can add effects and samples and cue things quickly, and it all adds up to a great performance. In terms of skills, I do think if you're using a controller/timecodes with the software, it does take some skill to mix and cue in things and be quick on the faders.


But, I do agree that people using WinAmp or even worse, Windows Media Player should classify themselves as jukeboxes, because they do little work besides make a playlist and set up some terrible speakers. But, these are only my two cents. :tup:
Spaces are your friend :tup:

I never really comment on these topics because I really don't care what you use. I just have to say this. Unless you are a mobile dj there will never be a need for that many tracks at a gig.

[deejayjsin]

wow.... amazing that THIS topic is back... AGAIN....

Btw, Im a math purist.... I use an abacus. Fuck all of you calculator-easy-way-out bitches. Your math doesnt matter as much as my math because because you get to your answers using updated technology and not the old better way (btw its better because its the old way)......
Genius!

[DJHoss]

Spaces are your friend :tup:

I never really comment on these topics because I really don't care what you use. I just have to say this. Unless you are a mobile dj there will never be a need for that many tracks at a gig.

Spaces: Check :tup:

As far as commenting goes, I don't either. I just felt like I should write an essay for all yall on my perspective of this situation:)

[DJNR]

Spaces: Check :tup:

As far as commenting goes, I don't either. I just felt like I should write an essay for all yall on my perspective of this situation:)

Nobody read my essay on the first page :(

[DJHoss]

Nobody read my essay on the first page :(

No one's going to read mine either, it just got covered up by another page lol

In the five minutes it took me to write that this thread expanded by 6 pages lol

[alazydj]

I do admit that vinyl does sound just a bit better, just because its such a pure source, and everything's analog. But, I'd rather have just a slight bit less quality for the ablility to have 40,000 MP3's on site as a mobile DJ, such as myself. And, the average Joe's isn't going to be able to tell the difference on a good sounding system. But, these are only my two cents. :tup:


If I ever had 40,000 MP3s to go into one gig, I would be very unprepared.

I'm finding that I usually have myself 200 tracks (Split between open set, peaktime, cool off and randoms) to use at any given moment for a show.


My 2 cents is that DJing with a laptop + sync button becomes a huge disadvantage and wouldn't be a whole lot of fun...you're a DJ if you can get those sexy girls to wiggle. You're a good DJ if people appreciate the fact that you threw down the kind of set you did. You're a great DJ when they start coming back.

[DJHoss]

If I ever had 40,000 MP3s to go into one gig, I would be very unprepared.

I'm finding that I usually have myself 200 tracks (Split between open set, peaktime, cool off and randoms) to use at any given moment for a show.


My 2 cents is that DJing with a laptop + sync button is a huge disadvantage and wouldn't be a whole lot of fun...you're a DJ if you can get those sexy girls to wiggle. You're a good DJ if you people appreciate the fact that you threw down the kind of set you did. You're a great DJ when they start coming back.

That's why I don't use the sync button. Not much fun, its the adrenaline rushing moment of having a split second to count the beats and make pitch adjustments. I just completely avoid the sync button.

[DJNR]

My 2 cents is that DJing with a laptop + sync button is a huge disadvantage and wouldn't be a whole lot of fun...you're a DJ if you can get those sexy girls to wiggle. You're a good DJ if you people appreciate the fact that you threw down the kind of set you did. You're a great DJ when they start coming back.

I really like this post. Well said.

[Sigma]

wow.... amazing that THIS topic is back... AGAIN....

Btw, Im a math purist.... I use an abacus. Fuck all of you calculator-easy-way-out bitches. Your math doesnt matter as much as my math because because you get to your answers using updated technology and not the old better way (btw its better because its the old way)......
Analogies like this only prove the opposite point to the one you're trying to make. In schools we don't teach kids maths in a way that requires them to have a calculator with them at all times. Take the calculator away and a 10 year old can still do their times tables because they were taught the fundamentals. I'm not saying "never use a calculator", but I am saying "learn the basics first so you don't have to rely on a calculator". This is the argument that me (and many others) make on here all the time about learning the fundamentals when it comes to DJing.

I can also see a few "beatmatching isn't hard anyway!" posts in this thread, but if it's so easy, why wouldn't you recommend that every DJ learns it, then they can DJ on anything? It's just bullshit excuse making again.

Passion for DJing is the most important thing. If you look at the way DJs respond to their peers, there's kind of a sliding scale. Things like miming to mix CDs and just playing tunes in Winamp or whatever are right there at the bottom and they're at the bottom cos people think that stuff is lame - a "real DJ wouldn't do that" - and a real DJ wouldn't do that because they have more passion for what they're doing. But it doesn't just stop with those two things. It's not like every other method of DJing aside from those examples of lameness is bundled in together as "OK!". Why do people want to take shortcuts? Why are people in such a rush? If you answer these questions, you'll realise that passion (or lack of it) has a lot to do with that. I look down on someone that can't be bothered to learn the basics in the same way that they would look down on the guy miming to the mix CD.

I find some people's attitudes a little on the offensive side. Some of the "dinosaurs" of DJing on here are the ones that have given out some of the best advice, and the n00bs are happy to suck it up and hand out the rep and say "thanks so much!", but if one of those DJs decides to criticise a fundamental choice that the n00b has made, all of a sudden they "don't know what they're talking about!" and are "stuck in the past!". :lol:

[DJNR]

I was the one saying beatmatching is easy, but to be clear, I agree wholeheartedly that DJs should learn and know how to beatmatch.

[silentsounds]

Analogies like this only prove the opposite point to the one you're trying to make. In schools we don't teach kids maths in a way that requires them to have a calculator with them at all times. Take the calculator away and a 10 year old can still do their times tables because they were taught the fundamentals. I'm not saying "never use a calculator", but I am saying "learn the basics first so you don't have to rely on a calculator". This is the argument that me (and many others) make on here all the time about learning the fundamentals when it comes to DJing.

I can also see a few "beatmatching isn't hard anyway!" posts in this thread, but if it's so easy, why wouldn't you recommend that every DJ learns it, then they can DJ on anything? It's just bullshit excuse making again.

Passion for DJing is the most important thing. If you look at the way DJs respond to their peers, there's kind of a sliding scale. Things like miming to mix CDs and just playing tunes in Winamp or whatever are right there at the bottom and they're at the bottom cos people think that stuff is lame - a "real DJ wouldn't do that" - and a real DJ wouldn't do that because they have more passion for what they're doing. But it doesn't just stop with those two things. It's not like every other method of DJing aside from those examples of lameness is bundled in together as "OK!". Why do people want to take shortcuts? Why are people in such a rush? If you answer these questions, you'll realise that passion (or lack of it) has a lot to do with that. I look down on someone that can't be bothered to learn the basics in the same way that they would look down on the guy miming to the mix CD.

I find some people's attitudes a little on the offensive side. Some of the "dinosaurs" of DJing on here are the ones that have given out some of the best advice, and the n00bs are happy to suck it up and hand out the rep and say "thanks so much!", but if one of those DJs decides to criticise a fundamental choice that the n00b has made, all of a sudden they "don't know what they're talking about!" and are "stuck in the past!". :lol:

I generally agree with what you are saying Sigma, but I've been a bit defensive of software DJs because of the level of abuse. People here tend to make assumptions and jump to conclusions if someone says they use a controller and software.

This thread is the perfect example. It was originally about people who use software (and sync) are not real DJs because they don't beat match. The first few posters already jumped to the conclusion that if you use sync, we can just assume you don't know how to beat match by ear. Yet guys like DJNR and myself are fully capable of doing it.

[Sigma]

I generally agree with what you are saying Sigma, but I've been a bit defensive of software DJs because of the level of abuse. People here tend to make assumptions and jump to conclusions if someone says they use a controller and software.

This thread is the perfect example. It was originally about people who use software (and sync) are not real DJs because they don't beat match. The first few posters already jumped to the conclusion that if you use sync, we can just assume you don't know how to beat match by ear. Yet guys like DJNR and myself are fully capable of doing it.
Fair point man. I try and judge people on what they say and how their mixes sound (given that I don't get the opportunity to see them at gigs), rather than what they're using. I will admit though, the hip-hop mixes I've listened to on here that were made using auto-sync have tended to be the most bland and uninspired, so if a DJ mentions their equipment in their post when posting a mix, it will sometimes set alarm bells ringing, but I will still judge them on what they actually do, not what gear they're working with.

Assuming that every vinyl DJ will be great and that every auto-sync controller guy will suck is just stupid, as anyone that's listened to plenty of mixes on here will know from experience.

[Dj_4-$hure]

Haters gonna hate!

I started on Numark Total Control, and Traktor software never used sync, didn't even know I had to have songs at same bpm for me to be able to beatmatch.

I bought my first TT's and my first collection of Vinyl, and was blessed to purchase TSP. "Still never used sync." (don't look at waveforms neither.)

My point is, I still don't get where you're getting at with this bullshit nonsense post. I think we all agree that you should manually learn to beatmatch as it gives you and your music more of a intimate connection.lol.

I can still get on my TT's with just vinyl and be able to do the same thing, well maybe not the same thing, because I can't use 8 hot cues, little fx, and when I need a double of a song, I just press one button, that's all just one. I agree vinyl sounds better and looks cool as fuck, but your post is just straight ignorant.;)

[NPC]

You only need music to be a DJ. Doesn't matter how you play it.

[Lost Connection]

You only need music to be a DJ. Doesn't matter how you play it.

Yess.

Then the difference between a good/professional DJ and a sync button DJ is a different thing, but both are DJs.

[Atomisk]

ITT: haters

[Gnozis]

I started on vinyl and switched to digital. I don't sync, but for all the people bashing syncer's........

Sync doesn't phrase-match for you (simply syncing two songs together will sound shitty if you don't phrase match)

Sync does not read your crowd and drop the right track at the right time

Sync does not go out and find you the hottest, rarest tracks to make you stand out from the crowd


Honestly, I don't give a f*** how anyone DJ's. If you sound good, I listen. I don't get why grown men are so sensitive about this s***........

[Windows 95]

are people who use controllers like the everpopular toy the numark mixtrack real DJ's?It doesn't matter if you're using a mouse, a controller, CDs or vinyl. The single most important thing that makes you a "real" DJ is your image.

1. Pick a really cool "DJ" name. Because you aren't a DJ if you don't have a DJ name.
2. Wear your hair like a Guido stereotype.
3. Unbutton your shirt down to your belly button. (< Male DJs. ******* can wear their clothes however they want, as long as those clothes have rhinestones or are made of mesh.)
4. Do drugs or at least make everybody think you are doing drugs.
5. Never ever under any circumstance, take requests.
6. Talk "ghetto" with plenty of cuss words. That way people will know that you have "street cred".
7. If you're white either avoid the sun so much that you look like a vampire, use so much spray on tan that you look like a pumpkin, or spend so much time in a tanning bed that your skin looks like beef jerky.
8. Wear sunglasses, no matter how dark the room is.
9. Make sure your shoes are the most expensive high tech athletic shoes you can find.
10. Strike a Jesus pose several times a night & always look like you're doing something with the mixer, even when you're not.
11. Buy overpriced headphones named after a celebrity.
12. Call everybody who doesn't fit into your own narrow definition of "DJ" as "fake" or "not a real DJ". Whether you have an actual experience as a DJ is completely irrelevant.

[Era 7]

yawn....again?

Richie Hawtin. i'll just leave it at that.

[Sigma]

yawn....again?

Richie Hawtin. i'll just leave it at that.
Richie Hawtin has never learned to beatmatch?

Never learning is not the same as choosing to use autosync.

[Quentin Legend]

a True DJ is only limited by his creativity.

DVS or Vinyl, creativity is what makes it interesting.

[Phil Noize]

Sigma is correct. The basics matter. I frequently do sets with new songs in, that I haven't played before ... then the software analyses the track badly ... with no time to mess about re-gridding the track, I use my ears and manually beat-match it.

I've had vinyl & CD DJs "look down their nose" at me in clubs when they've seen me setting up a laptop. One guy did this with real distain, so I beat-matched my first tune to his last one, but just as I was about to bring my tune in (about 1 min left on his tune), he shifted the pitch slider up on his tune. I adjusted my tune and beat-matched it perfectly, whilst thinking to myself, "What a c0ckbag!"

Without the basic skills, I would have trainwrecked for sure ... but the guy was still a c0ckbag!

[fat8ack]

I use controllers, I use sync, not real great at beatmatching by ear but can manage if I have to. Have several good mixes. Most of all don't give a shit what any one thinks of MY STYLE of mixing and DJing. FTW!

[Ellissentials]

Oh wow...where do I even start with this thread? Do I comment, do I not? Hmm

Well firstly,.. there's so much damn multi-quoting I could do it would fill a page in itself. I'll spare you of that, but just know anyone that says "all sync / software users are shit" ..... wow. I'd straight slap the bajesus out of you if you were in front of me. How dare you assume you know somebody? :argh:


I will quote one thing:

I started on vinyl and switched to digital. I don't sync, but for all the people bashing syncer's........

Sync doesn't phrase-match for you (simply syncing two songs together will sound shitty if you don't phrase match)

Sync does not read your crowd and drop the right track at the right time

Sync does not go out and find you the hottest, rarest tracks to make you stand out from the crowd


Honestly, I don't give a f*** how anyone DJ's. If you sound good, I listen. I don't get why grown men are so sensitive about this s***........

I used vinyl only for over 6 years, then DVS for about 3 years(Final Scratch 2.0 BEFORE Rane got in on the market ;) ) and for the last 2 years I've used a VCI-100SE with mappings from DJtechtools.com

The creativity you have with a controller and software, if used properly, is absolutely phenomenal. I can mix 3-4 tracks, with multiple samples, FX layer like crazy and just in generally be 500% more creative with my control, than I ever could with turntables. I'd rather worry about phrase matching, eq'ing, programming more so than trying to worry about that AND beat matching. I was beat matching for all those years, and it really got rather boring. I don't scratch, so what's the point? Do I suck? ... you can judge me if you like. www.soundcloud.com/ellissentials There's 12 hours packed into that account.

Someone mentioned in this thread, sure you can beatmatch easier with a controller, but it does NOT .. I repeat NOT phrase match for you or read the crowd for you or choose the best track for you. It doesn't program for you, EQ for you....it doesn't drop your samples for you...it does NOTHING but align 2 fucking tracks together. WHOOPTY DO!!!! You can beatmatch cheers!! :rolleyes:

Also, have you used Sync? Hmm? If so, have you also noticed it does NOT perfectly align a track and that you STILL have to nudge, adjust and monitor the said track?! Sure, people that pick up VDJ / Traktor / etc and have a cheap ass controller, just hitting sync and throwing tracks out not on proper time, totally abusing the FX, EQ'ing, ... phrase matching... hmm nice vocals over vocals you got there guy... yeah those guys suck! I do agree with this. But to generalize something like this is a total fucking slap to the face of people like ME who have done their time, lugged their gear, paid my fucking dues. I found new levels of fun to rocking music, and the art of mixing!!!

I have so much more to say about this, but I feel it's just going to be thrown back and tossed around like the the neighborhood bangtrain.

Point is, don't go right to the conclusions that were made by some in this post. That's an insult, and total kick in the nutz to some of us that would enjoy respect for what we have done, accomplished and continue to do.


:tup:

[KLH]

My turn. DJs aren't rated by the equipment that they use. DJs are entertainers; they're rated on their ability to deliver entertainment to a crowd no matter what. Who cares how the magic happens. If you need an array of military-grade liquid nitrogen cooled super-computers to beat-match but you pack 1,000,000 people in a stadium, do you think that anyone cares?

Back on DJF v1, I said that you're a DJ even if you rock crowd with a speak-and-spell and a toaster. The tools do NOT matter to crowds. Music, personality, passion, and excitement matters more than any tools.

As we're DJs on the internet talking amonst ourselves, you'd think that we'd challenge each other to push the envelop instead of arguing over how little we need to do to be credible. Yes, modern tools make DJing easier than those of 20 years ago. The question we should be discussing is how our performance should be focusing on doing things that weren't possible 20 years ago.

BOOM! What was THAT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tibq4cV9jIw)??? Me dropping some knowledge on you.

-KLH

[Signal Lost]

no you'v missed the point completely. with vinyl you have to cue up the records & get them in time for example, with sync you dont you just press a button

Did not read the whole thread. But this deserves a reply.

DJing is not only beatmatching, buddy. Beatmatching is only 15-20% of DJing.

When a software does sync tracks for you, you have to focus on many more things than beatmatching in order to improve your DJing. This gives you the opportunity to work on better track selection, crowd reading, live remixing, effecting, etc. Not having to worry about trainwrecking opens a whole new world of variables that you need to work on in order to distinguish yourself from the other plain, sync-button-pusher, DJs out there.

The times when you just beatmatched two tracks, and let them play together for three minutes, and then just fiddle around with EQs pretending to do something until the break / drop comes in, are gone. People seem to want more now out of DJs than just mixing tracks with the classic intro/outro mix (in my area at least).

That's where controllers are to be used. They give you infinite creative possibilities, that are not limited by your capacity to beatmatch, removing this constrain out of you mind so you can focus on the hundred other variables that will distinguish you from others.

After all, all DJs can beatmatch, wether they use sync or not. So if they all can do it, what will distinguish you from the other guys? You've guessed it, probably not your beatmatching skills.

[Raindance Rob]

as if this is still going lol

[Jason Cerna]

after looking at all the posts, i see we're back to beating dead horses.

i'm closing the thread.

[Hausgeist]

:zany: