Powered Speakers

[Djjordz]

I have searched and can't find anything the same
I am 16 and have a budget of about $1200 for a dj pa system.
I don't know what to get
Not fully sure about subwoofer?
Don't want passive. Thanks

[windspeed36]

Your best bet regardless of what people say here is to either call up Factory Sound here in Melbourne and see what their asking price for a pair of RCF312A's are or otherwise call up Norwest Touring and see if they've still got any of the RCF 322A's out of their ex-hire for sale.

Factory Sound have a huge reduction on RCF for christmas right now and Norwest are clearing about 40 322's across the country.

Otherwise with a budget like that you'll only really be able to pickup a pair of middle of the road Behringers - not even their higher quality 8 or 900 cabs.

A quality subwoofer around here will cost you between 1500 and 2k - you can import from the US but you're severely limited by Jands Australia and then voltage/cycles plus a lack of warranty support. It'll be easier to just rent an active subwoofer if need be.

[DJMLC]

RCF is an excellent brand and their ART312's shouldn't cost you much more than mid or low-end brands. (They're $800-$900 shipped here in the USA). If you're 16 then I assume you'll be doing a lot of younger-aged functions (school dances, Sweet 16's, etc). If that's the case, then definitely add a sub or two to the mix. Remember--even with the best full-range speakers, you won't get any "boom" from them. That's what a subwoofer is for. Even if you spend less on a mid-level brand sub, it will do wonders to whatever tops you get. I'd just REALLY recommend RCF for you due to their great sound and quality. I'm not sure what the currency difference is over in Australia, but if it's anything close to here in the USA, then a $1200 budget should be able to get RCF ART312 tops with an economical subwoofer. If there was a bit more of a budget, then RCF's SUB705 subwoofer would be an excellent option. If you have to skimp on the sub, then that's ok since you're just starting out. Get a cheaper sub like a Behringer or other lower-end brand just to have some bass in the system. It won't knock anyone's socks off, but at least you won't be stressing the hell out of your tops by trying to get bass out of them that they aren't made for. After you've made some money, you could add a second sub (even if it's an entry-level brand) or save up for a better one like RCF, Yamaha, EV, etc.

[jayhwk]

You're at a bit of a disadvantage in Australia - $1200 US can get you a pretty nice pair of entry level loudspeakers here in the US. I don't think it goes as far there...

windspeed36 is the guy to listen to here. I have actually heard about the Northwest Touring selling off a lot of rental inventory - that would be a good option if there are any left.

[windspeed36]

You're at a bit of a disadvantage in Australia - $1200 US can get you a pretty nice pair of entry level loudspeakers here in the US. I don't think it goes as far there...

That's about a roll of gaff, maybe a mic cable and a couple of toothpicks over here - gotta love Australia.

[Djjordz]

Your best bet regardless of what people say here is to either call up Factory Sound here in Melbourne and see what their asking price for a pair of RCF312A's are or otherwise call up Norwest Touring and see if they've still got any of the RCF 322A's out of their ex-hire for sale.

Factory Sound have a huge reduction on RCF for christmas right now and Norwest are clearing about 40 322's across the country.

My budget is now $1400 if that makes a difference
Thanks, I called Factory Sound and they just sold out of ART315AMk3's going at $699 each! Most likely go with 322a's at 600 each and get a Behringer B1500D to take some strain off the RCF. All up $1600, do you people think the sub will be necessary if this is my first proper setup and I haven't had any proper mobile dj gigs?

[windspeed36]

My budget is now $1400 if that makes a difference
Thanks, I called Factory Sound and they just sold out of ART315AMk3's going at $699 each! Most likely go with 322a's at 600 each and get a Behringer B1500D to take some strain off the RCF. All up $1600, do you people think the sub will be necessary if this is my first proper setup and I haven't had any proper mobile dj gigs?
Rent subs to start off with - then see how you go

Also if you are looking at buying a powered sub; I think it's the PA people in Glen Waverly might have some ex-hire for sale.

[DJMLC]

My budget is now $1400 if that makes a difference
Thanks, I called Factory Sound and they just sold out of ART315AMk3's going at $699 each! Most likely go with 322a's at 600 each and get a Behringer B1500D to take some strain off the RCF. All up $1600, do you people think the sub will be necessary if this is my first proper setup and I haven't had any proper mobile dj gigs?

If the 322's are $600 each, then the $312's should be about $100 less. And yes, get a sub--even if it's an entry level model like a Behringer. Literally, get whatever is an economical option since you will need a subwoofer for younger crowds. Save up when you make money and go for a second or uphrase later on.

Technically, yes you could rent subs--but say you're doing events like Sweet 16's. How would you determine which ones to bring a sub to and which ones would not require it? Case in point, one of the dj's that works for my company just had a Sweet 16 for 60 kids. The dj happened to say that he could get through the job with just his two tops--which are QSC K12's. I mentioned to him that he should at least take one sub in his ride just in case. Well, when I spoke to him the Monday after the party, he said he ended up taking the sub inside 10 minutes into the first set because the floor was packed and they kept asking for hip hop and house music. In the end, he admitted that he would have been screwed without the sub adding that necessary low end punch. This guy has very cheap entry level subs from a USA brand called Samson btw...so he is in a similar boat as you.

Either way, I was never a fan of renting subs because that money could have gone into an item that you actually own. Even if you borrow money from your parents to get it, you know you will be able to pay them back if you're booming the work.

[windspeed36]

If the 322's are $600 each, then the $312's should be about $100 less
That's ex-hire - 312's from memory run about $1100

[Djjordz]

Cheers guys
Im pretty certain i will get two RCF 322a's and a Behringer B1500d
Should get the RCF's for about 1100 hopefully considering cash and student? Discount Purchase?
And the Behringer for $459. Maybe get it a bit cheaper with some lucky New year sale!
Any other potential speakers I should know about ?

[windspeed36]

Cheers guys
Im pretty certain i will get two RCF 322a's and a Behringer B1500d
Should get the RCF's for about 1100 hopefully considering cash and student? Discount Purchase?
And the Behringer for $459. Maybe get it a bit cheaper with some lucky New year sale!
Any other potential speakers I should know about ?
There's plenty from JBL, Yamaha and QSC but they'll run you 1800-$3k a pair - Australia's pricing sucks

[Djjordz]

So you would say go the RCF's and Behringer?
I should get that for 1500 and don't want to spend any more!
Thanks

[DJMLC]

Any reason you're going with the 322's and not the 312's? Granted, the 2" high frequency output is better than the 1", but since you're on a tight budget, the 312's would give you a bit more flexibility.

[Djjordz]

Because I have found a good deal for the 322's and can't find any 312's for sale at a decent price.

[Djjordz]

https://www.djwarehouse.com.au/magento/index.php/Blog/jbl-ex-hire-sale
Is it worth the extra $190 each speaker to get the PRX615's?
Thanks

[windspeed36]

https://www.djwarehouse.com.au/magento/index.php/Blog/jbl-ex-hire-sale
Is it worth the extra $190 each speaker to get the PRX615's?
Thanks

No - 15's are better without subs but you're getting a sub. Also seeing as they're both ex-hire I'd go the 322's. They've got a really good sound and are very reliable - Hence why Norwest carries them.

[Djjordz]

I was considering the JBL's and no sub, but I will go with what you say. Do you work with Norwest?

[windspeed36]

I was considering the JBL's and no sub, but I will go with what you say. Do you work with Norwest?

Here and there - not much though actually barely anythingx. The JBL's will probably be in worse condition as they're ex-hire where as the Norwest are ex-inventory so they've been in capable hands.

[DJMLC]

Because I have found a good deal for the 322's and can't find any 312's for sale at a decent price.
If whoever you got the deal on the 322's from does not have the 312's or can not get them at a proportionate discount, then that makes sense. I'd just recommend making sure they can't get the 312's at a lower price. There's very little difference between the two models.


https://www.djwarehouse.com.au/magento/index.php/Blog/jbl-ex-hire-sale
Is it worth the extra $190 each speaker to get the PRX615's?
Thanks

I was considering the JBL's and no sub, but I will go with what you say. Do you work with Norwest?
Is the PRX615 a better speaker than the 322/312 from RCF? Yes, absolutely. Is the pair of 15" cabinetss better than the 12's with a sub? No.

[LondonSoundMan]

Take a look at / demo the RCF725a, stunning box and can be found on ebay for not a lot used :) Otherwise get friendly with a RCF dealer ;)

[windspeed36]

recommend making sure they can't get the 312's at a lower price. There's very little difference between the two models.
They're ex-inventory - http://www.norwestproductions.com/exhire_for_sale.html




Is the PRX615 a better speaker than the 322/312 from RCF? Yes, absolutely. Is the pair of 15" cabinetss better than the 12's with a sub? No.
Not really - depends on your preferences.


Take a look at / demo the RCF725a, stunning box and can be found on ebay for not a lot used :) Otherwise get friendly with a RCF dealer ;)
They run about $2200ea over here - I recently had a look at buying 8 of them...

[DJMLC]

^^^He's a kid--and for the gigs he'd likely be doing, a pair of tops with a sub will be better than two tops by itself. Obviously he isn't spending a ton of money here, so 12" tops would keep the budget down. If you know of a 15" full-range cabinet in his price range that will give more bass than an actual subwoofer, then by all means give the recommendation.

[fatcatdj]

Passive systems though you don't like them are far superior than powered.
Weight. Powered speakers weign in at 50 lbs for a cheap 15" 2 way one like a Behringer, American Audio, etc

Power supply takes a sh*t . What do you do? Well if you bought 2 powered, you can link up one
to the other and share a whooping 150 watts (75watts now)--I thnk you can

Power cords. You hooked up your XLRs up to the speakers. Nice. Now go and find outlets for them.

I have a 600 wpc at 8ohm power amp (weighs in at 50lbs) its the only 50lb thing I have to roll in to gigs
and the SKB case its in does have wheels and handle like an airport travel bag. I just whip out 50 feet
of cable to the speakers.

Deadmau5 doesn't use powered speakers at his concerts, you shouldn't either

[windspeed36]

Passive systems though you don't like them are far superior than powered.
Weight. Powered speakers weign in at 50 lbs for a cheap 15" 2 way one like a Behringer, American Audio, etc

Power supply takes a sh*t . What do you do? Well if you bought 2 powered, you can link up one
to the other and share a whooping 150 watts (75watts now)--I thnk you can

Power cords. You hooked up your XLRs up to the speakers. Nice. Now go and find outlets for them.

I have a 600 wpc at 8ohm power amp (weighs in at 50lbs) its the only 50lb thing I have to roll in to gigs
and the SKB case its in does have wheels and handle like an airport travel bag. I just whip out 50 feet
of cable to the speakers.

Deadmau5 doesn't use powered speakers at his concerts, you shouldn't either

That's the biggest load of crap I've heard. Granted powered speakers aren't the be all end all of audio solutions but with inbuilt limiting and signal processing as well as a similar if not cheaper pricetag than their passive counterparts powered speakers are a really good option in some cases.

And as for your last statement I won't really pick apart how stupid it is but you're wrong anyway - he has played at venues with both JBL VERTEC-P and Meyer Sound line arrays - both are active line array systems.

[fatcatdj]

You can keep your powered speakers and ruin your back trying to put them up on tripods
I'll come visit you with your bad back at the old dj's folks home in Perth LOL

Powered speakers IMO are things that manufacturers put together for portable PA's. Granted thats
what they are great for. Then someone decided to add a MP3 player, Mic in, mixer, etc which made the idea
attractive to the mobile scene. But to some it may be the best, but the weight factor---especially using
huge powered enclosures is going back in time. Bands and Dj's when I first started out were wary
from lumbering along folded horn systems that weighed a ton. Now that we're done with that technolgy,
what? start adding on the weight again with efficent designed enclosures? I say one step forward, one step back.

[windspeed36]

You can keep your powered speakers and ruin your back trying to put them up on tripods
I'll come visit you with your bad back at the old dj's folks home in Perth LOL

Powered speakers IMO are things that manufacturers put together for portable PA's. Granted thats
what they are great for. Then someone decided to add a MP3 player, Mic in, mixer, etc which made the idea
attractive to the mobile scene. But to some it may be the best, but the weight factor---especially using
huge powered enclosures is going back in time. Bands and Dj's when I first started out were wary
from lumbering along folded horn systems that weighed a ton. Now that we're done with that technolgy,
what? start adding on the weight again with efficent designed enclosures? I say one step forward, one step back.

The weight isn't a huge difference; the full size VERTEC array boxes only have a 15kg difference in weight which makes up the 3kw continous amp inside it. On a smaller scale the JBL PRX400 series despite being passive are slightly heavier than their powered 600 series counterparts. And a comparison of EV's LiveX 12 and 15" boxes shows only half a kilo of weight difference.

With D-class amplifier modules these days they're only getting lighter so weight isn't a huge factor.

[fatcatdj]

I agree, higher end powered D Class amps are lighter but the OP is probably in the Behringer price range. I was at my local dj store last month
and tried to lift a cheap 15" 2 way American Audio (50 lbs) onto a tripod (not extended) and the clerk had to help me. He said you really need two people
to put them up. But that means you have to hire someone to go along with you on gigs or ask a guest nicely to help you (hahahah right)

The JBL PRX615 is a real nice 1,000watt speaker, class D, weighs in a hefty 43lbs (better than 50 though) but they go for $900 US each

BTW--my Fostex 6103B even weighs alot for a crappy 4" powered monitor, ugh.

[Al Poulin]

Passive systems though you don't like them are far superior than powered.
Weight. Powered speakers weign in at 50 lbs for a cheap 15" 2 way one like a Behringer, American Audio, etc

Power supply takes a sh*t . What do you do? Well if you bought 2 powered, you can link up one
to the other and share a whooping 150 watts (75watts now)--I thnk you can



Quality active/powered speakers are bi-amped or tri-amped internally (which would require 2 or 3 amplifiers in a passive system), have built-in processing and limiting/protection for optimum reliability AND also often come with a built-in mixer with multiple line/mic ins as well as occasional EQ adjustments. The bi/tri-amping and built-in processing means that MOST actives will indeed sound BETTER out of the box than their passive equivalents. Dedicated amplification for the high/mid/low frequency drivers with amplifiers designed and properly filtered for the components they are powering assure top notch performance and reduced likelihood of failure.

I used passive systems for the first 15 years of my DJ/live sound business but have been 100% active for the last 7. Not a single failure yet. And even if one were to fail, I always have the other one to finish the night with since actives are independantly powered. (if you brought a pair, you've got a spare) If you're DJing with an amp and speakers on sticks and your amp goes down, you're entirely screwed however. (unless you brought a spare amp) I always have a third active I throw in my van just in case AND because sometimes someone needs an emergency ceremony speaker or someone has a laptop presentation that requires sound. In this case, grab the active speaker, plug it into the powerbar and plug the laptop to the speaker using a 1/8'' to RCA plug. To do the same with passive would require you bring the speaker, the amp, the mixer and all wiring that goes along with that.

My active tops weigh 27lbs (RCF ART 310A), 28lbs (Yamaha DXR8), 29lbs (Wharfedale Titan 12As) while my heaviest are my 41lb Yorkville NX55Ps and 55lb KV2 - KXAudio KX12s. With today's technology, the weight difference between active and passive is almost a non-issue. The benefits and convenience you gain from a powered speaker are undeniable IMHO.

Anyway, no one will ever convince me to go back...

Al Poulin - Party-Time! DJ Services

[LondonSoundMan]

We stock the fully active RCF HDL line array (http://www.truesoundhire.co.uk/component/content/article/7-servcies/273-rcf-hdl-line-array) and dont have any issues, like the above members says with today's amps and technology it makes sense. Its also means we can split the system into lots of small systems :)

[Djjordz]

Yeh okay so my rents don't want me to get 2nd hand due to reliability and warranty etc.
I can see their point, so I might get a lower system now and then upgrade to rcf next time
Any one like the Yamaha MRS 400's?
Cheers

[Al Poulin]

Yeh okay so my rents don't want me to get 2nd hand due to reliability and warranty etc.
I can see their point, so I might get a lower system now and then upgrade to rcf next time
Any one like the Yamaha MRS 400's?
Cheers


The MSR400s are OK, though not exciting in any way. I would say they are an average powered speaker in almost every way. They sound pretty good, get fairly loud and are reliable. No less, no more. The newer DXR and DSR series from Yamaha are much better though... The RCFs are better too.

Al

[DJMLC]

What about buying new from outside the country and having them shipped to your location?

[Djjordz]

Considering Im 16, I don't want the hassle of shipping, waiting and if anything goes wrong potentially warranty and then having to ship to the other side of the world
So for about $1200 new should I go the Yamaha's?

[windspeed36]

Try Soundcorp as they'll most likely sort you out the best for a pair of JBL PRX612's. DJWarehouse has them for about $900 ea but you should be able to go down to around $1400-1500 for a pair. Failing that you're pretty much stuck with the bottom end of the range Yamahas or otherwise Behringers offerings which aren't to everyone's liking.

Otherwise if you're willing to go passive you might be able to pickup a pair of JBL MRX512's and a cheap amp (Crown XLS, Behringer EP) for about your budget.


What about buying new from outside the country and having them shipped to your location?

Between voltage and freq, import tax, warranty support and Jands Australia it's pretty much damn impossible.

[Djjordz]

Cant afford any more than 1200 plus $450-500 for the sub
I just can't get any more and won't get it in the time I have
What about this-
Two DB Cromo 12's and Stands for $999 from store dj
or two of these
Two DB Cromo 15's for 484 each plus freight from victoria dj city

[windspeed36]

Cant afford any more than 1200 plus $450-500 for the sub
I just can't get any more and won't get it in the time I have
What about this-
Two DB Cromo 12's and Stands for $999 from store dj
or two of these
Two DB Cromo 15's for 484 each plus freight from victoria dj city

Haven't seen any major complaints about dB in general and a quick look at the specs shows they'll be quite a bit short of those powered RCF's or JBL's and more in line with Mackie Thumps but take those specs with a grain of salt. Go in to Richmond or wherever your closest StoreDJ is and have a listen for yourself.

I'd personally go the 12" versions if you're getting the subwoofer too and possibly also think about a 31 band GEQ as after a bit of experience you can make average speakers sound a bit better but it does take some mastering. Just don't cheap out and go with Behringer for them - a lot more noise in the Behringer units compared to say DBX.

[Djjordz]

Would it be in line with the thumps or in-between them and the RCF -JBL's?
If they are of the same level, then I might have to look up for a higher priced speaker
But is it normal to get a smaller top driver than the sub driver?

[windspeed36]

Would it be in line with the thumps or in-between them and the RCF -JBL's?
If they are of the same level, then I might have to look up for a higher priced speaker

Somwhere in between


But is it normal to get a smaller top driver than the sub driver?
As in 12" tops and 18" subs? Most definately, it's to do with the way drivers work. It's physically impossible for a 10 or 12" driver to go as low as an 18" driver. The normal configurations you'll see in a two way plus sub are at 12/1 top and a 15 or 18" sub. There are however a lot of different combinations such as three and four way tops plus subs.

[ampnation]

Whether you go powered or passive, you need to concern yourself with the crossover between tops and sub. Some active speakers have crossover filtering built in. Every combination of tops and subs FROM THE SAME MODEL LINE and usually even from just the same manufacturer (like QSC K & KW) have all the crossover functionality you need out of the box.

Any setup you get where the crossover functionality is incomplete or mismatched means you need another bit of kit like an external analog crossover like an Ashly XR2002, or a loudspeaker management system like a dbx DriveRack.

What do I mean by incomplete or mismatched crossover functionality? Here's a picture of a proper crossover visualized graphically in simplified fashion...
http://www.mackie.com/Products/srm350v2/images/Crossover_Graph.gif
your tops will most likely be two way tops and have a crossover built into them which you never have to worry about.
However if you have subs and tops, you need to be in control of the crossover. A typical crossover frequency aka crossover point, visualized above by the dashed line between subs and tops is 100 Hz. But the hypothetical ABC company sets there units at 80Hz. If you use both ABC tops and subs, that works fine because they're both set to 80. XYZ however sets there crossovers at 120Hz. If you pair ABC tops with XYZ subs, you'll get overlap. If you pair XYZ tops with ABC subs, you'll get a gap or valley that isn't covered or poorly covered.

The type of filter on each box matters too, although to a lesser degree AFAIK. There are three major algorithms used in crossovers... Besel, Butterworth and Linkwitz-Riley because real life crossovers happen in a far more complex world than the above simplified version. Often active loudspeaker makers don't advertise which they use, so you won't know unless you contact tech support and they know and can tell you. This is especially true for the cheapest systems.

Another important aspect to crossovers is the slope. It is usually desirable to have the same slope on both filters. The angle of descent or ascent is measured in db/octave. Typical modern crossovers are set to 24 db/octave but this can vary. Even with passive systems, if you buy from the same manufacturer, they can tell you exactly what crossover setting works best. Case in point, I have a Crown iTech amp and JBL SRX tops and sub. Both are owned by Harman and they have downloadable settings to load into the iTech amp which has crossover and more built in, that are optimized for the SRX system.

The incomplete part works like this. Let's say ABC's method is to make each box with it's own filtering which can be set on or off. Using ABC tops and bottoms, you set both to on, and between them, they function as a complete crossover. But let's say XYZ puts everything in the sub. If you use the tops with their sub,everything works fine. If you use the tops standalone, full range, everything works fine. But if you try to use ABC tops with a XYZ sub, the tops would be running full range while the sub would be filtered and you'll get uneven response.

So it is important to research before you buy active.
RCF tops are a great value but lack processing for the out connections.
The new Mackie DLM series has a lot of power in their filtering for both tops and sub.
Some tops have a switch to use when you're using the top with a sub, but it doesn't affect the outgoing signal.

Bottom line. Do your research BEFORE you buy and you'll end up with a system that works out of the box... or you'll avoid getting it and THEN realizing you need to add processing to get it right.

[Djjordz]

Nice, I will go the two 12's with 1' driver and the 15' sub woofer for total of $1250
This is what the blurb says
The B1500D-PRO and B1800D-PRO feature balanced XLR inputs and outputs, as well as balanced XLR THRU jacks for connecting additional enclosures. A BOOST FREQUENCY knob targets a boost frequency between 45 Hz and 90 Hz. Flick the BOOST switch to give your selected frequency a +6 dB boost. These subs also feature a HIGH CUT dial to control the upper corner frequency for the subwoofer’s amplifier. The HIGH CUT dial does not affect the THRU signals, only signals directed to the subwoofer (however, it does affect the signals sent out through the Output sockets of the subwoofer to reach the full-range speakers)
Would I go mixer into sub, then high pass outs of sub into cromo's?

[ampnation]

Yes, in this case the "thru" outs are for additional subs while the "output" is for tops which is a nice feature. I would assume the internal filtering matches the output filtering when engaged via the high cut. With a variable high cut dial, you should have greater control to get the best balance between bass and high/mid.

And yes, go mixer to sub and high pass outputs to cromos.

Good luck and report back.

[DJAkash]

322 is a great choice, but you should not settle with the behringer, ls801p york, 618s xlf jbl, kw181 qsc, much better andd all have their benefits, like york has most bump, jbl has best sound quality, qsc is super portable. Its just what you need that matters, I do weddings and quality based events so i went jbl.

[windspeed36]

322 is a great choice, but you should not settle with the behringer, ls801p york, 618s xlf jbl, kw181 qsc, much better andd all have their benefits, like york has most bump, jbl has best sound quality, qsc is super portable. Its just what you need that matters, I do weddings and quality based events so i went jbl.

Yet again in comes Australia's dodgy pricing; those subs are between $1900 and $2200ea.

[Djjordz]

Sweet
Thanks Guys
I am picking it all up next week for $1250

[Djjordz]

Oh my dear lord
I just got the Sub and one Cromo
The other is in the mail
The sub isn't even showing a signal coming through on the back and the house is shaking.
THe cromos sound great and really hold up!