how to upgrade from B52 Matrix 1000 V2's ?

[dirtydutch]

So i've been on this system for about a year. And my (mobile) gig frequency has been steadily increasing from once a month to about 4-5 a month (weekly).


A couple weeks ago on of my satellite speakers blew. It sounds distorted but I make it work for now. Also, getting bigger gigs, i've come to realize that the volume level of my current set up is not loud enough, which is probably why i pushed the gains and made one speaker blow.. oops.

My considerations from this point are:
1) get new passive monitors to be used with the matrix sub
2) get b52 matrix 2000
3) get pair of powered speakers

The one problem I had with the b52 is mobility. although they do have wheels, it's really bulky and sometimes tough to fit in cars.
However, I did love the sound that came out of it when it was working 100%

Since I play a lot of dance music / edm, the bass was good, but Ive been reading that the bass is even lower on the 2000s, which makes sense.

the pair of powered speakers I am considering are:
1) EV ELX112P
2) QSC K12

I think the advantage of getting powered speakers is I could use just one for smaller house parties. There have been many times I have turned down a gig because I either didn't want to transport the whole matrix system or had no transportation. (currently a uni student with no car on a big campus).

I usually have to borrow a car from friends if the gig is more than a mile or 2 away. Otherwise I roll around campus with the matrix system and everything stacked on top held together with a bungee. LOL.

I think that the 2 powered speakers would definitely fit in any car, or could be stacked on a dolly along with my other equipment and be less bulky, having the option of bringing my matrix sub if needed.

It seems as though I already prefer the 2 powered speakers, but the one thing holding me back is sound.
I can't get into the flow if my mixing if the sound isn't right. I like to re-create a "club experience" in my gigs.

Will the 2 powered speakers mentioned deliver enough bass without being distorted? (I like to make the room shake)

What should I go with? Other Suggestions?

[Incognito]

The SPL increase from the Matrix 1000 to the Matrix 2000 makes it not a worthwhile upgrade since you already blew the 1000 it is obvious it's more SPL you require. You can get the replacement diaphragm for the blown highs in one of your tops from B-52 or from time to time they show up in places like Ebay. Once you have the system fixed I would sell it & upgrade to something a little higher up onthe audio food chain, you could also go for this auction on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-52-Matrix-1000-V2-300W-Pair-of-10-monitors-/230880494794?pt=US_Other_Pro_Audio&hash=item35c18cc4ca (I would try to negotiate a better price considering the damage to one of them) but this would mean a lower return once you sell it (you may just as well sell it as is to someone & let them go about dealing with the blown tops but be sure to let them know about it before the sale).

Once you have sold the B-52 you can then go about moving to a complete powered system with matching sub & tops, as for which one is best suited for you will depend on your budget once you sell off the B-52. The option of getting a pair of powered tops to go with the Matrix 1000 sub would more then likely call for the addition of a 3rd party processor to smoothly make the transition from sub to your new tops with something like a DBX Driverack PX or a simple active crossover but this may not be required if you go with a matching powered system & adds to the over all cost of your potential new system (though the DBX Driverack PX does offer added advantages to the over all system if used correctly).

[Unknown DJ]

Look at some RCF art10's. Light weight, small, easy to move around and have good out put.

How much do you charge per event?

[Incognito]

Look at some RCF art10's. Light weight, small, easy to move around and have good out put.

How much do you charge per event?

Those are known for how good they sound forthe money but don't really go too loud.

[mr.doom]

My set is fairly loud at the frequencies it is designed to cover;), Al P has more experience with them and has stated that they get "very, very loud before limiting".
I gave away my spl meter to the local sound guy ten years ago but the 127db peak specification did not seem too far off IMO.

With a subwoofer taking all the low bass duty off the Art's they should work great.

The K12's would probably be a better option without a sub.

[light-o-matic]

Breaking this down.. there would only be two reasons that you could have for replacing the tops on your Matrix with new passive tops:

1) You intend to transition to more advanced passive system, and you can't afford to do it all at once. Putting high quality passive tops to your matrix 1000 is a first step in this direction.

2) You're happy with the power available on the Matrix system, and happy with the bass.. you just want better sounding mids and highs (I know I would).

I don't think that either of these situations apply to you.. therefore don't buy passive tops.

New powered tops seem to be the right thing for you.. but the problem you will have is that the crossover in the Matrix sub may not match correctly with your new tops. But, a new sub may not be in your budget. If that's the case, then make sure that whatever tops you are considering have a high pass (100 - 120 Hz) filter option.

[dirtydutch]

thanks for the suggestion for the rcf art10s, i'll look into it more but judging by them only being 10" im not sure itd be sufficient sound output if i dont bring the sub.
The idea is to have a sub as an option, not a necessity.

I am really liking the QSC K12s as they have the best mixer IMO. they also have a switch for deep mode, which im guessing is for added bass or lower-pass freq.
i havent had the chance to go demo K12s yet, but it is on my to do list.

how is the sound of only the K12s vs the sound of a b52 matrix 1000?

[Unknown DJ]

Those are known for how good they sound forthe money but don't really go too loud.

There good for party's of 2 to 300 people with one or 2 subs.

[ampnation]

I vote DXR15.

For the price (anywhere close to K12's) they're probably the best in terms of a compromise between sound quality and SPL. They have an excellent mixer section and full face grille like the K12. They have pretty decent bass when used full range and don't suffer much from being a 15" vs. 12" woofer model. 10" and 12" models as a general rule are best used where you will always have a sub. It really sounds like you want to sometimes, not bring the sub. In practice, given your description of always wanting to provide a dance club environment, I doubt you'll actually leave your sub at home often, if ever. If you decide that no, you probably won't leave the sub at home, go for the DXR12.

As suggested, some form of loudspeaker management (DSP) unit would be advised to get your crossover dialed in. The way the tops and subs in the Yamaha DX (DXR/DXS) lines are configured, one can see they are designed to receive one left, right or mono signal per top and if using a sub, having the signal run first through the sub. As such, the FOH/Main setting would give two different results depending on sub use or not. It gives you a bump in the lower frequencies when used standalone, but when used with the sub, one can set the sub's crossover 80, 100 or 120 Hz. When one does this, it send a filtered low end to the top allowing the sub to take over those lower frequencies. Keep in mind too that the K-Series is known for hitting the limiters much faster with DEEP engaged. In fact it would be surprising if they didn't.

So a pair of DXR12 or DXR15 top plus a DSP unit for now and maybe a DSR118W subwoofer later to replace the Matrix sub would be a great choice IMO. Once you add the DSR118W, you wouldn't need the DSP unless you were adding a pair of delayed fill speakers or something like that.

As far as transport, if I were you, I'd get a wagon style cart with big oversized wheels to haul your gear around campus on. It'll be far less prone to tipping or wheels getting stuck in cracks etc. than your Matrix sub with tops and other gear piled on top.

For the record, I've owned the Matrix (sold because I was never using it - have better gear) and K10's (current go to speaker) FWIW. My gigs haven't been as demanding as yours though. I can say though the K10 is a substantial improvement of the Matrix 10" passives on the Matrix 1000 v2.

[dirtydutch]

I vote DXR15.

For the price (anywhere close to K12's) they're probably the best in terms of a compromise between sound quality and SPL. They have an excellent mixer section and full face grille like the K12. They have pretty decent bass when used full range and don't suffer much from being a 15" vs. 12" woofer model. 10" and 12" models as a general rule are best used where you will always have a sub. It really sounds like you want to sometimes, not bring the sub. In practice, given your description of always wanting to provide a dance club environment, I doubt you'll actually leave your sub at home often, if ever. If you decide that no, you probably won't leave the sub at home, go for the DXR12.

As suggested, some form of loudspeaker management (DSP) unit would be advised to get your crossover dialed in. The way the tops and subs in the Yamaha DX (DXR/DXS) lines are configured, one can see they are designed to receive one left, right or mono signal per top and if using a sub, having the signal run first through the sub. As such, the FOH/Main setting would give two different results depending on sub use or not. It gives you a bump in the lower frequencies when used standalone, but when used with the sub, one can set the sub's crossover 80, 100 or 120 Hz. When one does this, it send a filtered low end to the top allowing the sub to take over those lower frequencies. Keep in mind too that the K-Series is known for hitting the limiters much faster with DEEP engaged. In fact it would be surprising if they didn't.

So a pair of DXR12 or DXR15 top plus a DSP unit for now and maybe a DSR118W subwoofer later to replace the Matrix sub would be a great choice IMO. Once you add the DSR118W, you wouldn't need the DSP unless you were adding a pair of delayed fill speakers or something like that.

As far as transport, if I were you, I'd get a wagon style cart with big oversized wheels to haul your gear around campus on. It'll be far less prone to tipping or wheels getting stuck in cracks etc. than your Matrix sub with tops and other gear piled on top.

For the record, I've owned the Matrix (sold because I was never using it - have better gear) and K10's (current go to speaker) FWIW. My gigs haven't been as demanding as yours though. I can say though the K10 is a substantial improvement of the Matrix 10" passives on the Matrix 1000 v2.

thanks for the great advice. You hit a lot of good points.
1) I do have A LOT of trouble when everything is piled on top of the matrix sub as it's higher than it is wide. also taller than me (5'11")
2) the wheels do often get stuck in cracks and especially have trouble getting into elevators and up pavemented ramps with cracks
3) i forgot about the dxr12s.. my friend also a dj on campus uses those. Ive never got to see the capacity of those but i remember it doesn't have that room shaking low frequency without a sub. I look more into it
4) looks like I'm going to be needing to go with the sub unless it's a small gig to achieve my objective with the environment
5) a bigger dolly, almost a flatbed, is probably what I need.

So when DEEP mode is on for the K12s, it doesn't get as loud?

Also, how do people feel about obtaining these items USED.

I've found the K12s for 600$ used on GC, and I've found the ELX112a's for $250 used on GC
Haven't found dxr12s yet

still have craigslist to search through.

I bought my b52 matrix v1000 for $500 with stands and chords off craigslist. it was a steal, ..until I blew a speaker

[Incognito]

My set is fairly loud at the frequencies it is designed to cover;), Al P has more experience with them and has stated that they get "very, very loud before limiting".
I gave away my spl meter to the local sound guy ten years ago but the 127db peak specification did not seem too far off IMO.

With a subwoofer taking all the low bass duty off the Art's they should work great.



Look up the spec for the Matrix & you would see that it too has a rating of 127db peak (keeping in mind peak ratings are worthless) yet the OP was able to blow his Matix top even with the added benefit of a sub. If you're going to upgrade on the grounds of SPL then it should actually be an upgrade instead of a parallel movement.

[Unknown DJ]

Matrix is rated at 124 DB peak for the tops and 127 for the sub.
http://www.b-52pro.com/products/Matrix1000V2.html

I don`t think the RCF`s will be a sideways move. I bet they are louder that the matrix tops by fair amount.

[light-o-matic]

Just a quick comment here.. yea, these "deep" modes and other processing that some of the powered speakers have are great features for certain situations, BUT you have to realize that these speakers DO NOT have more bass output capability than their competitors. These special modes only work when you are not using the speakers at full volume, like you would in many college party situations. As soon as you crank things up, that extra bass disappears.


It's a nice trick, and it works great for wedding DJs etc. But if you are looking for lots of bass output, in loud parties.. there is a basic rule.. more bass, requires more size. You can only get so much bass out of a small speaker cabinet. What you want to do is to look at the -3dB frequency of all the speakers you are considering.. and make sure that these numbers DO NOT include the use of any type of bass extender mode. The lower the number, the better. If you want to run without a sub, 10 inch powered speakers are really not going to cut it.. you will want a 12 at least.

[jayhwk]

I think that the ELX will probably do the job for you if money is tight, but the K12 is a better speaker (and is $350 more expensive, new). A better comparison in EV's lineup would be the SxA360, which is about the same price as the K12.

Another option are used QSC HPR122s, if you can find them.

You will probably need a sub to be happy - don't boost the lows my more than a few dB or you can risk blowing up even a powered loudspeaker with built-in processing.

[Incognito]

Matrix is rated at 124 DB peak for the tops and 127 for the sub.
http://www.b-52pro.com/products/Matrix1000V2.html

I don`t think the RCF`s will be a sideways move. I bet they are louder that the matrix tops by fair amount.

& you do what when combining the SPL rating of coupled speakers????

The sub is the deciding factor there & also the fact that you're basing this off of worthless peak ratings rather then actual ratings doesn't lend itself to any kind of credit.

Step up to something like the QSC or Yamaha & then you're talking about a real SPL upgrade. I used to have QSC HPR 122 tops & actually measured 126db from one with it not yet reaching clip so something along those lines in combination with a decent sub would be a worthwhile upgrade both SPL wise as well as sound quality wise.

[mr.doom]

This thread has gotten off track but since I own the little RCF's and know what they can do I will bring up this test (http://www.fbtusa.net/files/Test_Report_10inch_Pow._Speakers_Tools_engl1.pdf) from 6 years ago where the RCF had the highest output from a 10" powered speaker shootout.

And here is a comparison to EV's ZXA1 from PSW
"I have both the ART310A and the EV ZXA1. If only low or moderate SPL is needed, the ZXA1 sounds more clear in the midranges for voice, and better for recorded music than the 310A and is much lighter. The ZXA1 has a 100 Hz HPF option, the 310A has no built in EQ. The 310A to my ear has a hyped bass and treble that often need some EQ, especially if it is near a wall or a corner. Out in the middle of a big room, the hyped bass may actually be an advantage. The ZXA1 usually needs no EQ in my limited experience. That said, the 310A has much more SPL available, probably 6-8 dB more for most material and even more with the bass and treble rolled off a bit. It is also a much more robust cabinet in its physical build. I would call the ZXA1 almost delicate, it does not look like it will take half the physical beating the 310A would take, so a good padded or hard case would be important. I have not yet heard the QSC K10, but you may want to go demo that. For your needs, it may be better than either the 310A or the ZXA1.":)

Back on track, I think the new Yamaha 15"s might be a good investment for the OP as the bass output is said to be great (Al Poulan).
Then down the road sell the matrix and get a pair of real subs along with the required vehicle you need to haul them.:D

[Al Poulin]

If you're not planning to use at least one sub, then a set of 12s (at minimum) or better yet a set of powered 15s is your best bet. The Yamaha DXR12s or 15s are excellent as are the QSC K12s and even RCF Art 312As. If you play bass heavy music, the DXR15s would be my recommendation for stand alone use.

As for the RCF Art 310As, they are beautiful sounding little cabs and are some of the loudest 10" actives available for under 1000$ a pair. As is the case with any 10" speaker however, they can only move so much air and are not really designed to produce strong and deep low frequencies at high volumes. That's what subs are for. Boosting the low frequencies on small speakers will increase woofer excursion, which in turn will reduce overall output capability/headroom AND will eventually cause woofer damage or reduced life expectancy.

Al