Criticism Vs. Hating - something that is contributing to messing up the DJ scene

[Sigma]

This is something that I think needs to be addressed. Post your thoughts!

There is a difference between criticism and hating, although the line between the two can become blurred. To me, criticism is generally always good. Hating is generally always bad.

An example of criticism - If you don't learn to mix without auto-sync, you are limited in what equipment you can use and you may miss out on what can be a rewarding part of DJing.
An example of hating - Auto-sync is wack! You're a joke! Buy and use the gear I'm telling you to buy and use or you're pathetic.

Another example of criticism - Your mix wasn't very good, so I would advise that you learn the basics of phrase matching and using levels and EQs properly.
Another example of hating - Your mix is shit! Sell your gear and forget being a DJ!

The other difference between criticism and hating other than the way that the criticism is portrayed is in who/what the criticism is aimed at. Those that want to help people via criticism offer it up as a way to nudge a person in the right direction. Someone that's hating will hate even if the person they're hating on is better than they are, because it's not coming from a logical and honest standpoint. They may be jealous. They may just be trolling idiots.

Criticism is helpful to everyone IMO, as long as it's presented in a somewhat constructive manner. Hating doesn't really achieve anything positive, and my problem with it is that it can create a divide between experienced DJs that have potentially good advice to give, but are somewhat set in their ways, and n00b DJs that are just coming up that would benefit from some guidance. That can lead to those n00bs seeing people with lots of experience as "dinosaurs" that are stuck in the past and then both parties shut up shop and nobody benefits.

I guess what I'm saying is - don't judge a book by its cover. Not everybody DJs the same way that you do. Judge a person by their passion, their knowledge, their professionalism, their mixes, whether they are successfully rocking parties, and whether they sound like they respect the artform of DJing. If you see a n00b going down a road that you feel is the wrong one, say so, but explain yourself. If you're an experienced DJ, think about your own prejudices and whether or not they actually make any sense in 2012. Think whether the advice you are giving is actual good, critical advice, or whether it crosses over into hating, because if you do the latter you are only pushing people away!

That's not to say that hating is never justified, but a lot of venom that's directed at n00b DJs is totally undeserved and is actually counter-productive.

[dlove]

yep; 'hating' is putting somebody/thing down because you're jealous they're doing it; jealous of their enthusiasm. ('you're' being generic, not specific).
A good critic is one who joins in with their enthusiasm and enjoys feeling it. Criticising can verge onto hating when they're not doing it the way you think it should be done, and have no enthusiasm for what they're doing - like, using 'newfangled' equipment or playing music you don't like.
Being on the scene for so many years, I've checked myself many times (to make sure I'm not hating for hating's sake/being jealous), and noticed a lot of haters myself.

[David Bowman]

I'm wondering where the thin line is when it's actually about someone who genuinely can't mix instant coffee and sugar. I have seen a few who are a living testimony which proves that money does not buy skills, or an actual taste for music. In that aspect I also have lost count of mixes tracklists that are more or less the beatport top ten of the moment.


On the other hand I have seen a few with no budget but eager to learn and get better at it.

[djlukewathey]

couldnt agree more with this

when i was learning and seeking online help i got alot of great advice and guidance but unfortunatly there was a few stupid replys which didnt help me in anyway,

at the end of the day were all here to do the same thing play music

[DJ Elroy]

Just for the sake of argument, I think sometimes the only way to thin the over-populated herd of the DJ pool is a little hard talk. Is it hating if it's true? Sure, there are people that will talk trash because they're jealous, but if a DJ is so arrogant and delusional that he thinks his stuff don't stink and attacks people that are leaving constructive criticism, then it may be time to step it up and call him out. "Hating" could be any nonconstructive feedback, but I'd say sometimes it may be socially acceptable (and necessary). A certain "2001 Mix" comes to mind.

Hating may never be the best (or from one musician to another, the most professional) answer, but sometimes it is well-deserved on the part of the artist. Times like these are the exception to the rule, of course.

I agree that for the most part hating doesn't help anyone and it makes the person doing it look like a douche. I usually won't say anything if I can't find something good to say, or I'll give specific examples and hope the guy listens.

[bumpyjonas]

Working in the corporate world for several years the best advice I have ever across was the following "your supporters and family will make you happy but your critics make you better."

Criticism and feedback is a gift when given just say thank you.

[M!TCH]

I think another issue is that there is such a big disconnect when people are talking on a forum. I've listened to mixes and gave feedback and after rereading them I can see how I might come across harsh not because I am telling them their mix sucked, but because I am usually pretty blunt. Thanks for posting this Sigma, I'll definitely keep it in mind the next time I respond to a mix and try and make it more constructive and detailed than I have been as of late.

[Sigma]

Just for the sake of argument, I think sometimes the only way to thin the over-populated herd of the DJ pool is a little hard talk.
I 100% agree, but the real difference between criticism and hating is the motivation behind giving the feedback.

I'm certainly not saying that you can never be overwhelmingly negative towards another DJ - sometimes that's the only thing you can do if you're being honest. I'm just saying that if you do, make sure you're doing it for a good reason.

Even in the case of that Bateman mix, I would argue that he was largely the target of the "angry mob with torches", lol. I read that thread and many of the comments were people just jumping on the bandwagon and I would bet that some people left comments without even listening to the mix.


I'm wondering where the thin line is when it's actually about someone who genuinely can't mix instant coffee and sugar. I have seen a few who are a living testimony which proves that money does not buy skills, or an actual taste for music.
The thin line is in your motivation for responding. For example: -

Hating - You may not even listen to the mix, or you may just listen to a tiny bit of it. You may comment based on the person's equipment. You may comment because you don't like the person based on other posts on here. You may comment because you argue with them a lot. You may listen to the mix and think it's OK, but say it's shit anyway for one or more of the reasons I've just given. I don't think this does either party any good. The criticism is dishonest, which is what makes it hating. Other people see you doing it and it undermines your opinion overall, even if you do potentially have a lot to offer.

Negative, non-constructive criticism - At least here, you're being honest for the right reasons, but you're not giving the DJ much to work with.

Negative, constructive criticism - Even though you might beat the person's mix down, you give them a few pointers in what you think they need to do to improve. I think this is the best way to do it.

Obviously, when I say "you" here, I mean "any DJF member", not you personally. :D

[The Blackest]

Just for the sake of argument, I think sometimes the only way to thin the over-populated herd of the DJ pool is a little hard talk. Is it hating if it's true? Sure, there are people that will talk trash because they're jealous, but if a DJ is so arrogant and delusional that he thinks his stuff don't stink and attacks people that are leaving constructive criticism, then it may be time to step it up and call him out. "Hating" could be any nonconstructive feedback, but I'd say sometimes it may be socially acceptable (and necessary). A certain "2001 Mix" comes to mind.


THIS!! I've been called a hater because I told someone that they should practice mixing before they play out again.

Personally, I feel the whole "DJ" scene is now a joke. You got the celebs taking a crack at this and getting paid $10k+ and insta-djs pressing sync while reading waves like its a video game and demanding higher pay than established djs. And you get called a hater for calling them out. What?


Sorry, I'll get off of my box now...

[Sween]

Some people can't take criticism... Period.

It is simply immature.

[DJ Highline]

Its pretty simple to me:

Criticism = Telling someone something negative and then telling them how to correct that negative for the next time and possibly encouraging them to continue.

Hating = Telling someone something negative and nothing else or even worse trying to make them feel bad for having that negative and discouraging them to continue.

People who have confidence in what they do and who they are criticize and people who are not and have daddy issues hate.

[mrkleen]

So many of the younger DJs on this site think that because they are playing top 40 every Friday at Joe Blow's Corner Dive Bar - that they have "arrived" and no one can tell them anything about DJing without being a hater.

DJing circa 2012 - for the most part is about marketing and guest lists and how many friend you can bring out. Most DJs, even in big cities like NYC and Chicago - are nothing more than button pushers, with no understanding of the history of their craft - no appreciation for the musical foundations of their style or genre - and no respect for those who have come before them.

When somone who knows more than you, has been around longer than you, has seen more than you -calls you out. STFU and listen. Instead of crying about it, or calling him a hater - actually engage on what he is saying - maybe you might learn something from time to time. The inability for younger DJs to take criticism out here is rampant. If you want to know why DJF 2.0 is a mere shadow of its former greatness - this is right near the top of the list.

[manoaboi]

How I like to give my input:


I try to speak from my own experience, that way the person receiving my criticism knows what they're getting, and I get to be honest. (ex: "I liked x", "when I used x, it was y", "I thought y could have been z", etc.)
I also try not to use absolutes when I can. Using words like "everyone", "nobody", "always", "never", people might tune you out as they will think immediately of any exceptions they can, and probably won't retain the information you're trying to give them. This typically goes hand in hand with the above.
I try to remove unconstructive emotion, ego, and/or energy from criticism I give.


To me, its about keeping in mind you're trying to help others out.

And, when you're posting looking for feedback, its about keeping in mind others are trying to give you their input.

[djknowledge]

Guess I'm a little bit of both. When someone has potential, I'll be sure to let them know. But when someone gets a little ahead of themselves and starts being arrogant , sometimes they need to be told they honestly suck.

[Sigma]

Guess I'm a little bit of both. When someone has potential, I'll be sure to let them know. But when someone gets a little ahead of themselves and starts being arrogant , sometimes they need to be told they honestly suck.
The latter isn't hating.

The point of this thread was partly to illustrate the difference between criticism and hating and why that difference matters, but I guess I over-estimated the length of the average attention span, lol.

[djknowledge]

The latter isn't hating.

The point of this thread was partly to illustrate the difference between criticism and hating and why that difference matters, but I guess I over-estimated the length of the average attention span, lol.


I completely understand the topic. I'm stating that regardless, I'm both. You can fill up pages of people who say they are "critics" and would never dare or possess the characteristics necessary to hate or trash someone, but in reality they know they they are as guilty as the next. It's not exactly hating on someone it's just sometimes you feel like being a dick and sometimes as odd as it seems the situation might call for it. I understand the difference and why it's important but will the person receiving this criticism understand it? probably not. So i guess it's not hating but the person on the receiving end will certainly think it is lol.

[AdrianR]

I've been hated for 12 years as a Dj. As a teenager, 15 or 16, I jumped on the internet. I copped cyber bully shit about my Djing that would make emo's now days commit suicide. But, time went on. I'm at a point now where I can criticise myself. For example: I posted up a Techno mix. I KNOW where the flaws and faults are. I don't need them pointed out to me because, I've done this for 12 years. But, you can't get everything perfect ALL the time, even with Auto Sync and haters will pick up on that. The haters for that same mix (On another forum), they started hating on it, until their excuse later was "Oh, we're only hanging shit on you because you posted it in the wrong part of the forum", well, Jesus, it takes a LOT of energy to be a wanker over something SO minute. But, look at their signatures. They're playing all the major gigs.................... As back ups of course. But hey, they'll put them in that signature and hammer it home until they're dicks are blue.

Where I come from, it's ALL about hating. The guys who gave it to me as a kid, well, I grew up. ... I gave them ALL gigs. I took a massive dump on all of them. Them being wankers to me forced me to become bigger and better than them so I could stick them in their place. Problem is, they're the kind of fuck stains who will say "we created him, I knew him before he was what he is" (not that I'm anything.), when really it's like "no you made my life 1000 times harder than it needed to be."



Where I come from, this thread would be laughed at. People would be telling the guy who started it to shut the fuck up and get a gig, and to learn how to mix and to harden the fuck up. ... And people BUY INTO THEIR SHIT!!! It kills me! Because these are the people who are on Facebook saying "Friend me and I'll friend you" and "If you vote for me in this Dj competition I'll vote for you" and then never do and end up with big gigs which they then fuck up because THEY ARE SHIT! They are NOT good Djs, they feed off popularity and make that their main objective and are genuinely jealous towards anyone who holds any genuine talent for fear that the other persons talent will lead to them being more popular. And I see it EVERY day, Every night! Every time I go out! ... I have seen my local scene, in ALL of it's musical glory, literally DIE because of this attitude. This attitude coupled with the politics of Liquor Licencing etc, leads to young adults going out to shit parties that end at 3am, being thrown onto the street when they REALLY want to have fun, and well, stabbing eachother!


The guys who 'criticised' the last mix, well I checked them up. ... Bunch of has beens. And well, the have the attitude to accompany it. I'd of thought older, more experienced Djs would be a bit better than to base the merrit of a mix on the number of Sound Cloud downloads.... Especially for someone whose not dumb enough to put all his eggs in one basket. (Or in this case, mixes on one upload page.)

[Adzm00]

Also lets note "Personal Opinion/Preference" in regard to the arts (which includes music).

When someone is asking for an opinion on certain music (Deadmowfive is a prime example) and others say they do not like it, that does not mean they are hating and it does not mean they are jealous (one of the commonly most used arguments) it simply means they do not like the end result. For example if commenting on an album, there are many reasons someone may not like it, this could be from a technical production standpoint, or it may be that the end product just doesn't appeal to you sound wise.

People shouldn't dislike just because the music is popular or not, or because the person who created the music is a dick or not, these should have no impact. Music is one of those that has something for everyone, and not everyone likes the same thing.

[dlove]

^^ yeah, in the club I'm from, some of the best clubnights (imo) play the worst music (imo). I can't stand their music, although I know it's quality in it's own field. They pull the best & freshest crowds, and have the best atmosphere. I salute them for it, even tho' I'm technically in competition with them for dates, as I get that most young people want to hear what they play, and not me.

Coming from a small town up North, and being into Acid Jazz, Reggae Latin & Funk for many years, I've got to be philisophical about people 'liking' my music, anyway :lol:

edit/ the thing that does bug me tho' is when wannabe DJ's chat shit about clubnights without ever going, or if they turn up, go around chatting shit about the night, saying they could 'do better', no matter how jumping! it is. Bad vibes. Compete with your skills, not by pouring poison into the ears of everyone! That's hating.

[mrkleen]

The guys who 'criticised' the last mix, well I checked them up. ... Bunch of has beens. And well, the have the attitude to accompany it.

What someone is currently doing has fuck all to do with their ability to critique you and your skills. You think you are doing something that hasnt been done before - thousands of times?

Same with how far people have gotten in their careers. If they never or rarely played out, then sure - maybe they are not qualified to speak about reading a crowd or programming a night of music. But being a "well known" DJ and "having a clue in the DJ booth" are two totally separate things. The best local DJs I have heard are far better than 99% of the jocks on the DJ Top 100 list.

[dlove]

What someone is currently doing has fuck all to do with their ability to critique you and your skills. You think you are doing something that hasnt been done before - thousands of times?



good call-out, mrkleen :tup: I didn't know where to start on pulling that post up.

[The Blackest]

What someone is currently doing has fuck all to do with their ability to critique you and your skills. You think you are doing something that hasnt been done before - thousands of times?


Hater!

:teef:

[Drewbdo]

I 100% agree, but the real difference between criticism and hating is the motivation behind giving the feedback.

...

The thin line is in your motivation for responding. For example: -

Hating - You may not even listen to the mix, or you may just listen to a tiny bit of it. You may comment based on the person's equipment. You may comment because you don't like the person based on other posts on here. You may comment because you argue with them a lot. You may listen to the mix and think it's OK, but say it's shit anyway for one or more of the reasons I've just given. I don't think this does either party any good. The criticism is dishonest, which is what makes it hating. Other people see you doing it and it undermines your opinion overall, even if you do potentially have a lot to offer.

Negative, non-constructive criticism - At least here, you're being honest for the right reasons, but you're not giving the DJ much to work with.

Negative, constructive criticism - Even though you might beat the person's mix down, you give them a few pointers in what you think they need to do to improve...

^^What a true leader strives for.



Criticism = Telling someone something negative and then telling them how to correct that negative for the next time and possibly encouraging them to continue.

Hating = Telling someone something negative and nothing else or even worse trying to make them feel bad for having that negative and discouraging them to continue.


^^ This is also a great definition of the difference.

It's not just what you say, it's also HOW you say it.

Criticism = Honey, you are beautiful to me and I will always love you. If you want to wear that dress, I'm still proud to be with you, but I don't think that dress really accentuates your sexy figure as well as this other dress.

Hating = Nah girl... that dress don't make you look fat... your enormous fat rolls do. Don't try to blame that on the dress. Your lard-butt ain't the dress's fault.

One is motivated by caring concern, one is motivated by vitriol and nastiness. We each choose which kind of person we are going to be.

That said, if you ask for criticism, expect the haters to show up, because most of them don't know the difference between the two. So, the person asking for criticism also needs to grow a thick skin. If you ask for criticism, strap on your boots, because the haters are gonna show up and crap on your boots, just because that's who haters are.

[AdrianR]

What someone is currently doing has fuck all to do with their ability to critique you and your skills. You think you are doing something that hasnt been done before - thousands of times?

Same with how far people have gotten in their careers. If they never or rarely played out, then sure - maybe they are not qualified to speak about reading a crowd or programming a night of music. But being a "well known" DJ and "having a clue in the DJ booth" are two totally separate things. The best local DJs I have heard are far better than 99% of the jocks on the DJ Top 100 list.

You're right. It's all been done before and yes, there's A LOT of locals who are FAR better than the worlds top 10. But, there are Made Djs and BORN Dj's. Made Djs will hate Born Djs. Born Dj's will never understand why, but will keep pushing through the punishment whilst the made Dj's go on to become fucking, Graphic Designers or some shit.

When the world has forgotten about the MADE Djs, the born Djs, even if they never had a gig in their life, their music will find a way to live on. Be it, in someones car, on someones Ipod, on someones computer etc, it will leak through somewhere because people, generally, understand GOOD music. They want to LISTEN to it and be MOVED by it. They don't want to analyse it. They don't want to think about it. That's a MADE Dj scene. Thats why they all hate eachother but act like bum chums. They're fucking fake.

I'd like to hope one day someone will see me as a Born Dj. But for the momment I'm happy with my accomplishments and when I ask for critique, it's not to know if I have fucked up, because I KNOW I have, but any real situation calls for inperfection. I ask for criticism because I need to know my music still makes peoples underpants tingle a bit. So long as 1 person likes what I play and make, I'll keep playing. And even if they don't, then I'll do it for my personal pleasure to play what I like, how I like.

There's no need for older generations to be such haters. They're just jealous that they're out of the loop.

[The Blackest]

Born dj? What you were born to be a glorified jukebox? Help me understand this.

[Era 7]

Born dj? What you were born to be a glorified jukebox? Help me understand this.

i also :facepalm: a little. born djs? come on...

[mrkleen]

There's no need for older generations to be such haters. They're just jealous that they're out of the loop.

Sounds to me like you are a cry baby who asked for a pat on the back, and instead got some harsh criticism....which you clearly cant take.

The club / rave scene in the 80s and 90s was miles better than what is going on now. WMC was still about the music. Ibiza was still a great place to hear quality sets for short money. NYC had clubs like Limelight, Twilo, ARC, Sound Factory, Paladium. And every major city in the world was experiencing the peak of rave culture.

But yeah, guys who got to spin during that time are clearly jealous of the sad sack state of affairs you get to work in every weekend now. :lol:

[The Blackest]

You know I'm still trippin on the Born DJs bit.


Easy on the apple drink fella.

[spirez]

It's all about the shit sandwich

Positive comment
Negative comment
Positive comment

There were some good bits in that mix
The EQ and levels were off though, definitely something to work on
But keep it up and you'll nail it in no time!

[Maikky]

I find it annoying when "Big" Artist form a sentence or post some "Wise Quote" on twitter/facebook that basically means "Stop Hating"

People have different taste, they have the right to hate if they think your music is garbage .

Just because they're feelings are getting hurt doesn't give them the right to tell people what they should/shouldn't like .

People who say "Stop Being a Hater" are generally morons .

These people can't get it through their head that some people don't agree with them .

:blank:

Ain't nothing wrong with being a hater .

HzSUo8iPp4M

[thehadgi]

But, there are Made Djs and BORN Dj's. Made Djs will hate Born Djs. Born Dj's will never understand why, but will keep pushing through the punishment whilst the made Dj's go on to become fucking, Graphic Designers or some shit.


http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/26051843.jpg

[Marc S]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/549737_450749851631294_627710206_n.jpg

[Era 7]

you got it all wrong

http://images.firstcovers.com/covers/h/haters_hate-552.jpg

[AdrianR]

Sounds to me like you are a cry baby who asked for a pat on the back, and instead got some harsh criticism....which you clearly cant take.

The club / rave scene in the 80s and 90s was miles better than what is going on now. WMC was still about the music. Ibiza was still a great place to hear quality sets for short money. NYC had clubs like Limelight, Twilo, ARC, Sound Factory, Paladium. And every major city in the world was experiencing the peak of rave culture.

But yeah, guys who got to spin during that time are clearly jealous of the sad sack state of affairs you get to work in every weekend now. :lol:

See you say that, but then to me it sounds like you're just an old fart who can't get a gig anymore (Much like me) whose just going to tell everyone how shit their music is because they're not doing it with 2 belt drive turntables and a rotary mixer anymore.


Don't get me wrong, we ALL want the pat on the back. I won't lie, fuck oath I want it. If I put effort into something and it sounds good, and people on a dance floor respond well to it, then fucking, I want to have to need Physio for all the pats on the back I want. But, this is about criticism and hating.

What I'm trying to say is, I see a lot of the older generation handing out hating and passing it off as criticism and then putting up arguements such as your's to kind of, make it ok?
Because "Oh well everyone else is a new, what would they know?"



When I said some people are born Dj's, I didn't mean in that, they are born with the ability to Beat Mix and bust out awsome Turntablist tricks etc, but a lot of people are born with certain characteristics that can be beneficial to the Dj career by way of the talent applied more so than the business part.
Some people are just born more perceptive than others. Some are born with more sync. More, what's the word? Coordination, rythm, things like that. Some are born with personality traits that can help or hinder some functions required to be a Dj. It's the same as saying people born tall may have a born advantange in Basket Ball. Yeah, they gotta learn the rules of the game and shit, but that height they're born with is going to be an advantage.

I come from a small place in the world. A small, pretentious place where attitude rules over common sense. It's much easier to say someones music is rubbish over the internet because by doing that, it makes you look like you know more about it than the person who made it. Young and old a like, it's all become a "My cocks bigger than your's" competition.

It's not hard to be friendly. Especially over the internet. Everyone assumes that because there's annonymity it gives them the right to be a cunt. Human nature at it's best. "If I know no consequences will come to me for my wrong doing then I'm going to go ahead and do them".

[Sigma]

See you say that, but then to me it sounds like you're just an old fart who can't get a gig anymore (Much like me) whose just going to tell everyone how shit their music is because they're not doing it with 2 belt drive turntables and a rotary mixer anymore.
You'd be wrong there then. He gigs regularly and uses "current gen" equipment such as Traktor. You're guilty of what you were accusing him of! Haha.


What I'm trying to say is, I see a lot of the older generation handing out hating and passing it off as criticism and then putting up arguements such as your's to kind of, make it ok?
Because "Oh well everyone else is a new, what would they know?"
That happens sometimes for sure, but what also happens sometimes is that new DJs will accuse more experienced DJs of doing that even when they're not, just because they don't like what they're hearing.

[David Bowman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueNUQ-7PIVY

[AdrianR]

You'd be wrong there then. He gigs regularly and uses "current gen" equipment such as Traktor. You're guilty of what you were accusing him of! Haha.


That happens sometimes for sure, but what also happens sometimes is that new DJs will accuse more experienced DJs of doing that even when they're not, just because they don't like what they're hearing.


Yes you are exactly right and neither is right.

P.s. I didn't mean it to say he IS an old fart who gets no gigs and all that. How I meant it to come across was that a lot of older people hate on the younger ones because they don't understand the new way things are. But there are some who have warmed to Traktor etc, and warmed to modern genres who are great Djs. They can also be accused of hating. Everyone can but not everyone will. No matter how far a long you are in the journey, you're always going to find someone who will hate you because of your quest.

All I'm saying is for me personally, it has always been the old school guys who have given me grief. Now I've done my time and stuff and they still give me the shits but because it's been so long it's kind of worn thin. So when new guys give me hate it's like "well, fuck off, what ever." because I can see how far a long they are know they don't know what they're talking about. When old guys do it it's like "well, come on, we've all been doing this for years, I thought we were above this High School Haters bullshit?".
But Haters Attract Haters!

My situation has been, the old ones start it, then the young ones look up to them because they see them as experienced. Like, stories from Granpa, and then, they follow on. Before you know it you have all these assholes hounding you over something so small, that it drags the fun out of every facet of the game. From promoting a gig, to a track etc etc etc.
And the problem is, it spills over into reality where I am because they end up going out together. The parties end up full of these kinds of people who will then go back to their forums and brag and brag and brag, when all they did was sit there, chin stroke and hate on EVERYTHING that didn't involve them.
Then the young haters are out;
"oh man you played so awsome last night" to the old haters. T
"Thanks junior. Your head job last night was fantastic"
"wow no problems props. Anything to swallow the load of a superstar Dj veteran such as yourself"

and these cliques form.

These smug fucking cliques of wankers who play bad music, noticably bad music, who, hate eachother, back stab eachother, suck up to people worse than them to use them as support to victimise those who are better and a threat to them, and fucking, good Dj's get hung out to dry. It makes me sick!

We should have INTERNATIONAL BASH A FUCKING DJ day.

[dlove]

^^ Like you said, "haters attract haters". You're coming across as a massive hater, so it's no wonder people are giving you "grief". Goodness grief!

[dlove]

meanwhile, in reality, most DJ's are really sound, and quite happy to play along with other genres, other mediums and most of all, other people.

[AdrianR]

I just don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say.

[Doppelganger]

For me, even more useless comment are people who just say "Nice mix man". Makes me wonder if they did even listen to it in the end. Fair enough if you can't add criticism but you can still say what you liked about it etc.

[David Bowman]

For me, even more useless comment are people who just say "Nice mix man". Makes me wonder if they did even listen to it in the end. Fair enough if you can't add criticism but you can still say what you liked about it etc.

I remember one of these here, still wondering how he managed to listen a whole 65 minutes+ in just under 6 minutes after I posted the mix. The guy was like, "nice mix man, but work on your EQ and beatmatching". What's the point in doing that, it's just condescending and meaningless.

[The Blackest]

I just don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say.

Honestly, you sound like a guy in my area that has been getting shitted on just about his entire "dj career". It sounds like to me, you bring a lot of negativity on to yourself.

Stop your moaning and stop trying to justify how much of a drama queen you are.


And INB4 MrKleen's epic response. Well at least I hope its epic.

[mrkleen]

Honestly, you sound like a guy in my area that has been getting shitted on just about his entire "dj career". It sounds like to me, you bring a lot of negativity on to yourself.

Stop your moaning and stop trying to justify how much of a drama queen you are.


And INB4 MrKleen's epic response. Well at least I hope its epic.

LOL

I am actually over it. Adrian sounds like a good kid trying to get his name out there...and getting lots of unnecessary shit from old timers.

My only caveat is that if he can toughen up a bit and stop letting every criticism get to him - he may find that there are lots of gems of truth and good advice in between the harsh words. The fact that someone doesnt play out as often as they used to, in no means changes the kind of experience and knowledge they have. If you can tap a couple of these guys as mentors, you will be so far ahead of the average "know it all" young DJ. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride to actually learn a lesson that in the long run, will be beneficial to you and your growth.

[General Sherman]

I love criticism and feedback, but I agree, as a (self proclaimed) excellent judge of character, I pick up on the tone behind much of that criticism. Sometime's its sincere, and from a place of genuinely wanting to help, and sometimes it's underhanded, usually as a result of jealousy. Dj's as we all know, are quite a mixed bag. Dj'ing happens to be highly glamorized in society and many dj's get ENORMOUS ego's when they start getting attention at gig's and elsewhere. Then when someone else they know show's interest in learning, they somehow feel their manhood is being threatened and feel the need to knock that person down. Its a bit jading to be honest. I have only one close friend/ dj partner who isn't a total douchbag. Countless gigs I've been talked down to, had my gear scoffed at etc. It's usually subtle, but very noticeable.

TL;DR: Dj's can be a bunch of egotistical douchbag's sometimes. Just get yourself in with a couple good people and the hell with the rest and what they have to say, unless its useful and constructive.

[dlove]

seriously, the only 'DJ's' I know with ego problems are the wannabes; those who don't quite get there. The real DJ's I've played with over the years have all been sound, and passed on little hints and tricks to me that have improved my game.

As someone who's been playing in clubs for 10 years, I find it quite offensive that 'old timers' are looked at as 'putting young ones down', when in fact, I love it when a good new DJ appears on the scene; it's like gardening and seeing that bush you tended to flower.

I think you guys moaning about the competition need to wise up to the culture of DJ'ing; it's competitive by nature, you do it to (try and) show you're the best. Get with it! :lol:

[dlove]

as a (self proclaimed) excellent judge of character,

Dangerous! ;)

[General Sherman]

Dangerous! ;)

Yeah, just another way to say "judgemental dick" right? I get it.
I only think I'm a decent judge of character because my intuitions about people have been proven right time and time again, much to my disappointment. But it's not something I act out on, and I certainly always give people the benefit of the doubt in any case. I like making friends.

Also, I think we may have different definitions of "competitive". I am competitive by playing the best set I possibly can. Its not something I try to convey through a holier than thou attitude. I can appreciate some light hearted ball busting, but when someone is being sly and condescending, IE talking down to me about my "sub par" gear, I don't see it as competitive, I see it as douchbaggery

Just as an example, I am always 'liking' peoples pages, listening to peoples mix's, following their soundclouds, promoting their shows, supporting fellow dj's and producers any way I know how. Then I put out a track, my very first upload worthy track, which I had worked very hard on, and many of those same people who so graciously accept my positive support, all of a sudden don't acknowledge my existence. I'm not even asking for 'positive' feedback, just any kind of constructive criticism, and it seems that many of them once they realised I too am capable, they chose to ignore me. I know they listened to the track, even show's on their 'activity', yet not even a "cool track", not even a "not my cup of tea but keep up the good work".....NOTHING. So you tell me, am I just being judgemental and oversensitive or is there something behind that behavior? Mutual support between artists is a win-win for everybody involved, some people can't swallow their pride and understand that. Perhaps its a location thing, if so, I'm happy for you that you hang with supportive and secure people. I do have a few friends like that and I will hold them close.

[dlove]

Also, I think we may have different definitions of "competitive". I am competitive by playing the best set I possibly can. Its not something I try to convey through a holier than thou attitude. I can appreciate some light hearted ball busting, but when someone is being sly and condescending, IE talking down to me about my "sub par" gear, I don't see it as competitive, I see it as douchbaggery



I totally agree; my definition of competitive is being the best I can - it's lame putting others down just to compare oneself, dahling - I want everyone to be brilliant :tup:

[dlove]

Mutual support between artists is a win-win for everybody involved, some people can't swallow their pride and understand that. Perhaps its a location thing, if so, I'm happy for you that you hang with supportive and secure people. I do have a few friends like that and I will hold them close.

I think it's because our club was borne from the original illegal rave scene; it's always been a collective, and it gets bigger the more people are involved. It's a state of mind that's not first about personal gain, but about pushing the vibes forward.

I dunno; aren't all DJ's happy to communicate positively with other DJ's and collectives? I love being able to speak like the true geek I am, without worrying I'm boring the pants off someone...it's great fun playing with fellow geeks!

[General Sherman]

I think it's because our club was borne from the original illegal rave scene; it's always been a collective, and it gets bigger the more people are involved. It's a state of mind that's not first about personal gain, but about pushing the vibes forward.

I dunno; aren't all DJ's happy to communicate positively with other DJ's and collectives? I love being able to speak like the true geek I am, without worrying I'm boring the pants off someone...it's great fun playing with fellow geeks!

See that is the kind of scene I would fit in with. I personally don't care to be the centre of attention as a dj, I prefer to party with the crowd and keep the focus on the music. People didn't always used to face the dj at raves like they were something to behold. The dj wasn't the main attraction, its only become that way in the past decade or so. The main attraction should be the music. I think that was the mentality all along during the rave days, and I'm not sure why it has changed so much.

[dlove]

^^I suppose the scene's changed so much because it's become commercial - it's not just small independent clubs anymore; now, every bar has a DJ, is open later, and they're all competing for customers at the weekend, same as us.

[AdrianR]

LOL

I am actually over it. Adrian sounds like a good kid trying to get his name out there...and getting lots of unnecessary shit from old timers.

My only caveat is that if he can toughen up a bit and stop letting every criticism get to him - he may find that there are lots of gems of truth and good advice in between the harsh words. The fact that someone doesnt play out as often as they used to, in no means changes the kind of experience and knowledge they have. If you can tap a couple of these guys as mentors, you will be so far ahead of the average "know it all" young DJ. Sometimes you need to swallow your pride to actually learn a lesson that in the long run, will be beneficial to you and your growth.


If someone doesn't play out as often as they used to, thats fine. Fuck I'll even give them a gig if their good. But in my situation I was told I was shit for so long, but their words didn't match the physical reactions I was getting. It was like, online, every other Dj hated me. ONLY Dj's.. In real life, I couldn't do a bad gig. (Sorry to blow my own horn.) But yes of course older people will have words of wisdom. I don't listen to people just because they're older and wiser, some of them are genuine geniuses and I idolise them and continue to even if I surpass them. But, they've never been assholes to me.

All I'm trying to say is, that anyone can be a hater and anyone can be on the receiving end. For me personally, my reception has been for many, many years from older guys who are upset that after all the shit that's happend I'm still trying to give it a go, even if I'm not doing as well as I was years ago.

Young Djs can teach me a lot to because they are the knowledge of the changing scene. There's nothing wrong with that. There is NEVER anything wrong with learning from anyone at all, young or old. I just think there is a lot of negativity going around because a lot of people are jealous. I think a lot of the older guys are jealous because they think they are better because back then they played a different game but that's all it is. It's music. It should be ENJOYED first and foremost. For all the bitching and whinging I do, I fucking love this and I can't imagine life with out it and no matter how much I fail at it I'll still do it until I physically no longer can. People are always going to hate me and us for it but who cares?
Fuck them. Let them have their lives with their fancy jobs and Ikea life styles and all that, let them act all mature about it and have a cry.

It's just that, when they pipe up, it discourages GENUINE people from talking up because they don't want to get into a shit storm on a forum or on Sound Cloud or what ever. But we need those GENUINE voices because as a global scene, we ALL need to up our game and if we don't know how shit a job we're really doing, then we're fucked with out a condom! :P

[General Sherman]

It's just that, when they pipe up, it discourages GENUINE people

I can relate, far as my local scene at least, I just can't be bothered. Its not that I can't take criticism, its just that the atmosphere around certain people is negative and toxic because of their jealousy. Its not an enjoyable thing when you can't just kick it with other dj's without them being jealous little bitches and being condescending and talking down to you at every opportunity. Until I reach a city with a bigger more positive scene, with people I can actually work with as an equal, it really isn't worth pursuing for me.

[AdrianR]

Dude, when I started as a DJ people would come to your house for "mix jams". We'd set up in the garage and basically do a VS set and thing was, the other guy would try to out do you by mixing an impossible track or something. It was competetive but friendly and it served a purpose. It allowed us to experiment and learn. Now, I can't get anyone over. If they come over it's all "You go for an hour, then I'll go for an hour." Like we're in a club or something..
"Dude, it's my fucking garage, theres no one to impress here. Lets rip it up!"
"Oh nah I can't play like that".

A guy came from San Francisco to live 10 minutes away from me. He got it, cos, over there they did the same thing and he was a bit old school... Mate, down here, no chance.
They're bad Dj's, they don't want to get better, they'll have a zillion social media contacts and they will only succeed by slandering you to those social media contacts.

[General Sherman]

Dude, when I started as a DJ people would come to your house for "mix jams". We'd set up in the garage and basically do a VS set and thing was, the other guy would try to out do you by mixing an impossible track or something. It was competetive but friendly and it served a purpose. It allowed us to experiment and learn. Now, I can't get anyone over. If they come over it's all "You go for an hour, then I'll go for an hour." Like we're in a club or something..
"Dude, it's my fucking garage, theres no one to impress here. Lets rip it up!"
"Oh nah I can't play like that".
A guy came from San Francisco to live 10 minutes away from me. He got it, cos, over there they did the same thing and he was a bit old school... Mate, down here, no chance.
They're bad Dj's, they don't want to get better, they'll have a zillion social media contacts and they will only succeed by slandering you to those social media contacts.

Yeah there is definitely something changing about the mentality, its becoming less of a social thing and more of a selfish do-for-self kind of thing. It's too bad, I really like that concept. I do have a couple buddies that would be down with doing that, think I'll tell them whats up next time they are over

[login]

http://www.quickmeme.com/Inexperienced-DJ/?upcoming

[Nonyas]

so many sync haters

[AdrianR]

I only hate syncers if they havent learned vinyl and cdj first. I think you have to learn the whole skill set even just as back up. Just to hold your own. Otherwise it's like, ripping off awsome high flying kung fu kicks and shit for demonstration, but then getting in a fight and getting the shit kicked out of you because you didn't learn how to apply that kick.

[General Sherman]

It's true, there is a reason why people who can beat match feel better equipped. Its not JUST about matching beats up, that's childs play. The thing is, during the tedious process of first learning that skill, you also learn greater dexterity, proper eq'ing, and develop a MUCH better ear for the music because you HAVE to or you will train wreck and sound like shit. You might say "yeah but I can learn those things with autosync too!", and you might be right, but fact is, if you don't HAVE to, 90% of people never will. I'm not trying to sound elitist, and anybody who learnt how to beatmatch on vinyl can back me up here, when beatmatching actually clicks, it literally rewires your brain, and you hear music differently. From that point on you can hear two tracks separately in each ear, and actually process them separately. You will find yourself hearing two different songs out in public, say one from a car and one from a club and you will want to match them in your head lol. It all sounds like bs until you actually learn, but I'm telling you, its an essential skill as a dj.

[AdrianR]

I agree. Sync button has made Djing more enjoyable for me because I can focus on a productive element of it, because my head has ALWAYS been wired as a producer and that's how I view Djing. I find a loop, manipulate it etc. But, you need to understand the music you play. You need to understand WHY it needs to be in beat. You don't ALWAYS need to beat mix every song, infact, I think true master Dj's can manipulate SILENCE as much as they can manipulate music, but, in saying that, it's like the deadliest skill of Dj-ness. The kind of shit where, if you pull it off, you're a champion. If you fuck it up you perish with your opponent.

Beat mixing is ONE TOOL. One VERY IMPORTANT tool. But you need to know how,when and WHY to use it. The only way you can learn that is by practice. It's like learning that first block. If you leave after that first class and it's ALL you learn, it might be the one technique that will save your ass one day.

[Sigma]

The thing is, during the tedious process of first learning that skill, you also learn greater dexterity, proper eq'ing, and develop a MUCH better ear for the music because you HAVE to or you will train wreck and sound like shit. You might say "yeah but I can learn those things with autosync too!", and you might be right, but fact is, if you don't HAVE to, 90% of people never will. I'm not trying to sound elitist, and anybody who learnt how to beatmatch on vinyl can back me up here, when beatmatching actually clicks, it literally rewires your brain, and you hear music differently. From that point on you can hear two tracks separately in each ear, and actually process them separately. You will find yourself hearing two different songs out in public, say one from a car and one from a club and you will want to match them in your head lol. It all sounds like bs until you actually learn, but I'm telling you, its an essential skill as a dj.
This is so on point man, but people will still ignore it because they want to cut corners.

The problem is, it's not something that you can really understand fully until after you've done it, then you get it.

Auto-sync CAN give people more time to be creative, but 99% of the time that's just a bullshit excuse. Being creative takes passion for a particular art. If you've got passion for a particular art, you wouldn't skip the basics.

If I was teaching someone to DJ and they refused to learn beatmatching, this is the only song they'd hear, as I'm booting their lazy ass out the door: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENwuDtUa0Gg

[AdrianR]

I think beat mixing should be the first thing you learn.