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View Full Version : Lorde Finesse suing Mac Miller



Boomcie
07-11-2012, 09:28 AM
Seriously?
http://allhiphop.com/2012/07/11/hip-hop-icon-lord-finesse-suing-mac-miller-rostrum-records-and-datpiff-for-10-million/

RDRCK
07-11-2012, 12:32 PM
So wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold the phone.

A hip-hop producer suing another hip-hop producer for, lemme get this straight, for sampling?!?

Shut the door!!!

We've come full circle

:lol:

rchecka
07-11-2012, 01:07 PM
^Wrong. This has nothing to do with sampling, it's beat jacking, which in of itself in the context of mixtapes is common practice. Sampling is taking a small segment of a song and looping it, not taking the entire produced instrumental as is. I wouldn't do it, but it's done all the time in the same exact context without suits being filed.


Producer makes beat and rapper raps over the beat and sells the record which contains the copyright protected instrumental. It is sold, therefore the producer gets paid for the job.
New jack rapper jacks that producer's beat and raps over it and gives it away for free in the form of a mixtape (in this case a mp3 download only). New Jack doesn't make jack off the mixtape (unless he sells it which almost never happens with mixtapes anymore.) but producer is pissed cuz he didn't directly profit from the distribution of the track while the new jack indirectly did profit from self promotion.

Can't really blame the producer (Lord Finesse) for being pissed off about his beat jacking, the law is on his side so he'll probably win the suit (maybe not 10,000,000 dollars but he'll get something according to copyright laws) but it does seem petty for him to go down that road since that kind of rapping over jacked beats is the culture of rapper produced mixtapes. In a way it's a nod of respect to Lord Finesse that Mac Miller used the beat, but bottom line, if Finesse doesn't like the way it was done, damn right he can call his lawyer and get paid.

HH Producers being over protective of their beats is not a new phenomenon, taking legal action is. If this trial becomes "an example" (which is where the 10,000,000 dollars comes from) it's not going to effect the way underground Hip Hop rappers make mixtapes, but it might make the established well known musicians think twice about using an old tribe instrumental, even when done with good intentions for no direct monetary gain.

Personally I'm already sick of hearing about this and I don't care whether he wins or not, or whether it even makes it to trial. The whole thing is all pretty trivial unless it actually becomes the copyright police's new "I'm gonna teach those thieves a lesson" lawsuit.

Lazerick
07-11-2012, 01:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vsLcNJdF9k

RDRCK
07-11-2012, 01:29 PM
I stand by my statement.

Sampling is just one facet of the historic (and I believe correct) African-American (and previously European) view that you can't "own" a piece of music.

rchecka
07-11-2012, 01:33 PM
^What color are the clouds in your world?

rchecka
07-11-2012, 01:40 PM
Traditional Sampling (even untraditional sampleing) involves sampling sections of a song. Beat Jacking is taking an entire song. Hip Hop would not exist without sampling but it could exist just fine without beat jacking.

LeFresh
07-11-2012, 08:26 PM
I don't see what the big deal is, peeps go over others beats all the time in hip hop.
You can't sell it, but you can put it out for free on mixtapes. Thats what Mac did.

Divercity
07-11-2012, 09:15 PM
:lol: Oh this is hilarious..

RDRCK
07-12-2012, 12:55 AM
^What color are the clouds in your world?

Rainbow?

Yes, I know what sampling is. Doesn't change my opinion and the historic African American position that music cannot be "owned."

I guess you gotta make money somehow or other in this day and age :shrug:

rchecka
07-12-2012, 07:49 AM
Yes, I know what sampling is.


No, you clearly do not, because you keep bringing it up here and Lord Finesse is not suing MM for sampling. He's suing him for taking his ENTIRE INSTRUMENTAL as-is, without changing a damn thing about it. That aint sampling dude, not in anyone's book, not even in rainbow cloud land.




Doesn't change my opinion and the historic African American position that music cannot be "owned."


You keep saying that over and over and I don't think you have a clue as to how ignorant it sounds. It's like you are misquoting a documentary that you watched way too many times and now suddenly you are enlightened with "African American" positions. I know at least one African American who thinks you are talking out of your ass.

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2318728906/image.jpg

Hell, I know a lot of African American's who don't think their instrumentals are free to use for any and every half-ass punk spitter on the planet, here's another one...

http://hiphopandpolitics.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/pete_rock-1.jpg

And even though this has absolutely nothing to do with sampling, here's a few guys who got sampled who think they should get at least acknowledged by name if not paid royalties every time someone uses their beats...

http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Clyde-Stubblefield1.jpg

http://www.biography.com/imported/images/Biography/Images/Profiles/B/James-Brown-9228350-1-402.jpg

Last time I checked, all these dudes were African American so you might wanna stop using such broad sweeping race cards in your irrelevant point now.

Again, I could care less if LF sues or not, but there is no denying that he is entitled to sue by well established black and white copyright laws.




I guess you gotta make money somehow or other in this day and age


Another ignorant remark, as if you are saying he needs to sue to get paid. Lord Finesse doesn't need to sue, he's doing just fine right now. These just came out recently and are all on sale at Fat Beats...

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0068/0042/products/lordfinesseback_1_small.jpg?109513
Lord Finesse - Signature Sevens Vol. 2 (Gatefold 2 x 7")
Slice-of-Spice &...
Lord Finesse - Signature Sevens Vol. 3 (Gatefold 2 x 7")
NOW SHIPPING...
Lord Finesse - Rare & Unreleased CD
Lord Finesse - Signature Sevens Vol. 1 (Gatefold 2 x 7")
NOW SHIPPING...
Lord Finesse - The Art of Diggin': Blue Note State Of Mind (CD)


but hey, since you go with the "Historical African American" position that all music is public domain that you shouldn't have to buy, I guess you wouldn't care about music that's for sale. :teef:

rchecka
07-12-2012, 10:47 AM
As per a dude by the name of Russ Rockwell...

This is straight from the horses mouth Via Lord Finesses Facebook Page...


Mixtapes are a networking piece.. I ain't trying to stop mixtapes.. but you can't just straight rhyme over someone's instrumental.. shoot a video... Register the song... Then claim it as your own.. and when the other party steps to you you're not even being smart about the situation.. When you're telling my people he should be glad Mac's rhyming over his shyt... Fuck Outta Here... Anyone who knows Lord Finesse know.. my career is built from a grind.. 20 years of grinding.. So yeah I never had a gold or platinum record "Correct" But if you think I'm gonna let someone exploit what I earned and hustled for you're insane... sir

Lord Finesse Yesterday at 11:59 (supposedly)

RDRCK
07-12-2012, 11:07 AM
Alright, so how about this angle then rchecka? And I am just playing devil's advocate at this point, I have absolutely no idea who Mac Miller is, nor do I care.

When Mac took a previously composed beat, and put his own vocals over it, he created a completely new piece of music.

I would like to, somehow, marry that to my idea (it's my own idea, not something I saw in a documentary :tup:) that I am still formulating that the African American community has had a much more open minded interpretation of ownership of music. And that is absolutely not dependent on race, it was a previously held idea for Europeans as well.

The reason I kept bringing up sampling is because it is only the most recent expression of a phenomenon that reaches all the way back to griots in Africa and traveling minstrels in Europe.

Quoting in Jazz is another example, as are Jazz standards in general. I don't bring up sampling because this IS sampling, but because this instance and sampling, and quoting, and covering, and standards, and traveling minstrels, and griots, are all part of the same idea.

I absolutely did not intend my above statement to be a defense for piracy.

If Lord Finesse is doing well, power to him. The world is a richer place for his music, as it is for (most of) the music that was made via sampling of the artists that you mentioned above :shrug: When you sue someone for 10 million dollars, for a piece of music, even if it was stolen, that the defendant made no money off of, it does make you look kinda silly. Of course, of course it may very well have been, and probably was, on the advice of his lawyer. Still...

Obviously, I need to tone down the rhetoric, and not make such broad sweeping statements, thanks for calling me on it. The internet is far too easy a place to try and grandstand, and I am far too often guilty of it. I still think that there is something to my idea.

BuddyUK
07-12-2012, 11:16 AM
As per a dude by the name of Russ Rockwell...

This is straight from the horses mouth Via Lord Finesses Facebook Page...


Mixtapes are a networking piece.. I ain't trying to stop mixtapes.. but you can't just straight rhyme over someone's instrumental.. shoot a video... Register the song... Then claim it as your own.. and when the other party steps to you you're not even being smart about the situation.. When you're telling my people he should be glad Mac's rhyming over his shyt... Fuck Outta Here... Anyone who knows Lord Finesse know.. my career is built from a grind.. 20 years of grinding.. So yeah I never had a gold or platinum record "Correct" But if you think I'm gonna let someone exploit what I earned and hustled for you're insane... sir

Lord Finesse Yesterday at 11:59 (supposedly)


http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr154/bud1uk/okwitthis.png

Sigma
07-12-2012, 11:32 AM
Oscar Peterson is probably saying something similar about Lord Finesse sampling his work without credit nor payment.

rchecka
07-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Oscar Peterson is probably saying something similar about Lord Finesse sampling his work without credit nor payment.

^Apples and oranges. This has NADA to do with sampling and even if it did when did 2 wrongs ever make a right? Yer mom taught you that man, come on. I'm not even saying it's wrong, but it's clearly irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Yes, everyone knows Finesse is not the saint of sample clearance royalty payments, he and literally a 1000 other rappers probably owe billions in unclaimed lawsuits from just James Brown alone samples that were uncleared, but eventually James Brown did get paid at some point, the case was closed, and the rest is water under the bridge.

But again, who even cares about all that, that was then this is now, that was apples this is cumquats.

Sigma
07-12-2012, 12:13 PM
Unfortunately the courts don't use "rchecka's made up book of rules" when deciding what is copyright infringement and what isn't.

I steal something that you stole from someone else and you wanna get mad and try and sue me? Hahaha! Best of luck with that.

rchecka
07-12-2012, 12:24 PM
Unfortunately the courts don't use "rchecka's made up book of rules" when deciding what is copyright infringement and what isn't.



Whatev dude, I'm not making up rules, I'm talking about real live lawsuits that are on record. Educate yourself a little bit, look it up under "James Brown vs Hip Hop". And again, that was based on sampling, this is not.

Your stance doesn't surprise me one bit though because you always take the if you can't debate, cloud the issue tactic every time. You pretty much justify that the world is your oyster no matter what beach your on, we've been down this road before, let's spare the people the rehash shall we? Neither of us are seeing even remotely eye to eye on the subject of beat jacking, DJ jacking or even sampling in general.

Sigma
07-12-2012, 12:27 PM
You're a hypocrite - I get it. Whose music will you be distributing on the Internet without permission next? Haha. Fucking mong.

This is real cloudy though, eh?.......


I steal something that you stole from someone else and you wanna get mad and try and sue me? Hahaha!
lol.

rchecka
07-12-2012, 12:40 PM
You're a hypocrite - I get it. Whose music will you be distributing on the Internet without permission next? Haha. Fucking mong.

Hahah... Ok, so now you are talking about my DJ mixes that are online, and getting mad, like clockwork. Keep on fogging up the topic, and bust out the name calling, cuz you got nothing on point to add. While you are at it, you might as well call out every DJ who thinks Finesse deserves credit for his productions with active mp3 mixes online a hypocrite, cuz that's what you saying to me. Hypocrites can't draw a clear distinction between DJing and Beat Jacking and sampling.

Sigma
07-12-2012, 12:45 PM
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
http://i.imgur.com/paxk8.jpg

rchecka
07-12-2012, 01:20 PM
I'd bet in your predictable lil anger breakdown you didn't copy and paste all those blahs and manually typed each one.

:lol:

Just paste this video dude, it's easier.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrbumvF-Oe4

^I'm gonna sample that someday, and hell yeah I'll pay royalties for it.

Sigma
07-12-2012, 01:40 PM
I'm not angry in the slightest. If I was angry, I'd avoid this forum cos I got my knickers in a twist over a petty disagreement - kinda like you've done with DV.

Your trolling skills are 12 year old level. "You're angry and me saying this repeatedly is designed to make you even more angry!". Hehe. That shit doesn't work on grown folks.

rchecka
07-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Right, you aint angry, and you're so grown up that you call me "fucking mong". You ain't so mad that you would resort to a string of endless capitol lettered "BLAHS" punctuated with "!". Right, that's not an emotional break down, no not at all. Cuz, hey, that's how grown folks disagree. Why don't you try to disagree with me by staying on the topic if you are going to debate me, show a little class, we are about the same age.


Here's a news flash for people about grown man debating...

In a debate, when you name call, you are saying that you ran out of valid points, and everyone knows you lost the debate.
When you can't stay on topic and constantly cloud the issue with irrelevant comments, everyone knows you lost the debate.
When you bring baggage to the table about things that happened in the past that no one knows about or gives a fuck about, to taint the conversation, and attempt to name-smear, you lost the debate.
When you call someone a 12 year old troll (BTW: as soon as someone busts out the "Troll" card, the most overused, misunderstood, word on forums, they officially ran out of real responses) you lost the debate.
When you exclaim that you are not angry with an exclamation mark, everyone can see you lost the debate.

I learned one thing when trying to debate with you, and that's when it gets to this point where all you got left is hurling insults, I should just sit back and let you get the last word, it's way more effective to watch you train wreck and it is a waste of time for everyone (especially me) for me to reason with you at all when you've resorted to your temper tantrums. Time to get in your last word now and tell me again about my mongoloid clown shoes in your grown-man, not-at-all mad voice.

Dj_4-$hure
07-12-2012, 05:55 PM
Hmmm! I think we're forgetting how Madlib came up. I saw on this documentary on how Madlib used all of J Dilla beats. J dilla heard Madlib verses on his instrumentals and was like what the fudge...he's pretty good. And the rest is history.

Sigma
07-12-2012, 07:16 PM
When Mac took a previously composed beat, and put his own vocals over it, he created a completely new piece of music.
No, you've got to "flip the sample" man!

You couldn't just take this beat for instance: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_vrzuh0xKU

And then use it on a mixtape for free and without permission, like these guys did: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWX5ssiybdc

Hold up, I just noticed that one of those guys is Lord Finesse.......

Dude even jacked the chorus, haha.

RDRCK
07-12-2012, 08:58 PM
Hmmm! I think we're forgetting how Madlib came up. I saw on this documentary on how Madlib used all of J Dilla beats. J dilla heard Madlib verses on his instrumentals and was like what the fudge...he's pretty good. And the rest is history.

Isn't the difference between Madlib and Mac Miller that Madlib is actually good? :zany:

RDRCK
07-12-2012, 09:02 PM
That reminds me rchecka. What about the island phenomenon of various vocalists putting their own stylings over the same riddim? It would seem to me that this is at least akin, if not the same thing. You can't tell me that every single version is fully authorized and approved by the DJ that made the riddim.

And, for the record, I am hyper aware of the fact that creating a beat from a sample takes a level of skill and talent (especially a beat as good as Hip 2 Da Game) that far outweighs lifting a beat wholesale and rapping over it. I'm just saying that, in the long run, the principle is the same. You are taking a piece of music that already existed and creating something new with it, how much or how little manipulation you did to the original is irrelevant. And there's not a thing wrong with either :shrug:

Dj_4-$hure
07-12-2012, 10:22 PM
Isn't the difference between Madlib and Mac Miller that Madlib is actually good? :zany:

I agree.

Hamza21
07-13-2012, 12:30 AM
And then use it on a mixtape for free and without permission, like these guys did: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWX5ssiybdc

Hold up, I just noticed that one of those guys is Lord Finesse.......

Dude even jacked the chorus, haha.

That's not a Lord Finesse song that's a DBlock song. Lord Finesse doesn't do freebies,Im sure he got paid to drop his verse. It's up D Block to pay the neptunes for the beat not Lord Finesse.

M.C. Rhizz
07-20-2012, 03:39 PM
LFAO! Sigma, telling it like it is...